9! VERY LARGE IN THEIR CONCERNS. AND THEREFORE, UH, i

Transcription

1 340 WELL, alack PAJAMAS WAS A SOMEWHAT METAPHORCAL 2 TERM. MANY VETNAMESE PEASANTS TENDED TO WEAR 3 BLACK PAJAMAS, BUT WHAT AM REFERRNG TO S THAT 4 OUTSDE OF THE NORTH VETNAMESE UNTS AND ~OME OF 5 THE MAN FORCE UNTS, THEY DD NOT TEND TO WEAR 6 UNFORMS. 1 MEAN, -- THEY HAD LOTS OF LOGSTCAL j PROBLEMS OF WHCH BENG SURE THAT T WAS GRADE 8 NUMBER -- SHADE 357 AS OPPOSED TO 356 DD NOT LOOM 9! VERY LARGE N THER CONCERNS. AND THEREFORE, UH, i 10 MEAN, FOR EX'PLE, F YOU WENT -- F YOU WENT JUST AS ';E ',",ERE CROSSNG NTO GERMANY AND, YOU 12 KNOW, THERE HAD BEEN HEAVY ENGAGEMENT, YOU COULD SAY, 'OKAY, THOSE ARE SOLDERS AND THOSE ARE CVLANS.' T WOULD BE A RELATVELY EASY THNG 15 TO DO WTH A FARLY HGH DEGREE OF ACCURACY. YOU 16 COULD NOT DO THAT ON A BATTLEFELD N VETNAM. i AND ON THAT MACABRE NOTE, MAYBE WE COULD CALL T. QUTS. BY MR. BOES: OKAY. THANK YOU, (ADJOURNED UNTL 11:00 M., NOVEMBER 30, 83) NOVEMBER 30, 83: BY MR. BOES: GOOD MORNNG, MR. CARVE~. BY DEPONENT:

2 ---_... " " " ' '"' _._._--_..--_ _., "-t-' 341 '- F YOU WOULD L KE, MR. BOES, THNK THAT CAN 2 SHED A LTTLE LGHT ON THOSE TwO MCNAMARA 3 DOCUMENTS AND CLEAR UP A COUPLE MATTERS THAT WE 4 WERE YESTERDAY -- WE WERE TALKNG ABOUT MCNAMARA-1 5 AND MCNAMARA Y MR.. 60 E S : 7 ALL RGHT, LET ME TRY TO GET THOSE DOCUMENTS N 8 FRONT OF YOU. 00 YOU NEED THOSE DOCUMENTS? 9 BY DEPONENT: 10 NEED TO CHECK THE DAE ON ONE OF THEM, BUT AM, YOU KNOW, 99.9% SURE THAT T S THE ONE REFERRED 12 TO. 13 BY MR. BOES: 14 LET ME TRY TO DG THOSE TWO DOCUMENTS OUT FOR YOU, S (REVEW OF FLES). 16 OKAY, HAND YOU DEFENDANTS' EXHBT 127. lib Y DEPONENT: ALL RGHT. EXAMNATON CONTNUED BY MR. BOES: WHCH BELEVE YOU NDCATED THAT YOU THOUGHT 21 MGHT BE "MCNAMARA-", AS YOU DESCRBE T. 22 RGHT. 23 AND HAND YOU DEFENDANTS' EXHBT 33-A, YEAH -- COULD YOU JUST CHECK -- DON'T NEED T. 25 JUST CHECK THE DATE ON THAT FOR ME, WLL YOU? i..._.._..._ i.. J..._...

3 , l- -n ~ , ' S DEFENDANTS' EXHBT 33-A S DATED MAY 23, 67. ALL RGHT, THAT S WHAT THOUGHT T WAS. NOW, -- AND T S, AM SURE, MCNAMARA-2. F YOU WLL TURN TO THE VOLUME 30 HEARNGS BEFORE THE COMMTTEE, SELECT COMMTTEE ON NTELLGENCE, DATED 3 DECEMBER '75. THAT S THAT THNG THAT WE HAD TO RESORT THE PAGES ON YESTERDAY, AND F YOU'LL FLP TO MR. COLBY'S COMMENTS STARTNG ON PAGE 4615 AND READ ON YOU WLL FNO THAT BOTH OF THESE DOCUMENTS ARE REFERRED TO THERE N WAY THAT SHED LGHT ON THEM. HE SAYS, "MR. ADAMS' NTAL QUESTONNG OF THE CORRECTNESS OF THE OFFCAL ESTMATES WAS DONE ON HS DRAFT REPORT DATED 22 AUGUST ON THE STRENGTH OF THE VETCONG RREGULARS CAN YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE READNG FROM? AM READNG FROM THE TOP OF PAGE DO YOU SEE THE TYPE? THERE S A TYPED PARAGRAPH ON THE TOP OF PAGE 4517 FOLLOWED BY AN TALCZED PARAGRAPH, -- OKAY? ARE WE TOGETHER? HAVE 4617 N FRONT OF ME. ALL RGHT. SEE AT THE VERY TOP T SAYS, "TO START AT THE BEGNNNG. ". ALL RGHT, SEE THAT. OKAY, READ THE SECOND SENTENCE. "ON 26 AUGUS T, JUST FOUR DAYS LATER THE CA N A SPECAL

4 , ,..-.~ "------" n--.--l-;---.-l-,- 343 ASSESSMENT PREPARED FOR THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE 2 AND ALSO SENT TO THE PRESDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE 3 AND OTHER SENOR OFFCALS, ADVSED RECENTLY 4 ACQURED DOCUMENTARY EVDENCE NOW BENG STUDED N 5 DETAL SUGGEST THA~ OUR HOLDNGS ON THE NUMERCAL 6 STRENGTH OF THE RREGULARS NOW BENG CARRED 7 AROUND 110,000 MAY REQURE DRASTC REVSON." 8 SNCE THE DATES ARE DENTCAL, THAT NALS DOWN 9 THAT THE 22 AUGUST DOCUMENT S N FACT MCNAMARA-. 10 THAT S DEFENDANTS' EXHBT 127, BELlEVE THAT S CORRECT. (SEARCH), DO HAVE T 12 OR DO YOU HAVE T? THNK YOU HAVE T. 13 THS S DEFENDANTS' EXHBT 127 AND YEAH THS S THE DOCUMENT THAT MR. COLBY S QUOTNG 16 FROM, i (AFFRMATVE NOD), S QUOTNG FROM AND S DATED 26 AUGUST; SO THS S, WTHOUT QUESTON, MCNAMARA-l. 21 OKAY. OKAY. THAT SOLVES THE SSUE WTH RESPECT TO THAT ONE. 22 AND ALSO AT VAROUS -- HE GOES ON TO QUOTE VAROUS 23 STATEMENTS FROM MCNAMARA-l ABOUT FORCE STRUCTURE 24 AND STRENGTH, SO THERE OBVOUSLY S MATERAL N 25 THERE; THOUGH PRECSELY WHERE T S, DON'T KNOW, J

5 345 1 WOULD YOU JUST READ THE REMANNG SENTENCE ON THAT 2 PAGE? 3 CERTANLY. "THE 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY CA 4 N THS REPORT COULD BE COMPARED WTH AN OFFCAL 5 MLTARY NUMBER AT THAT TME OF 292,000." 6 DON'T HAPPEN TO THNK THAT THAT SENTENCE S 7 QUTE ACCURATE, BUT THAT S THE SENTENCE THAT S 8 THERE THAT S THE SENTENCE THAT MR. COLBY --- THAT S THE SENTENCE THAT APPEARS N MR. COLBY'S ~ TESTMONY BEFORE THE PKE COMMSSON. AND DD YOU REVEW WTH MR. COLBY HS PREPARED STATEMENT BEFORE HE GAVE T? REV EWED -- NOW, THAT'S, TiERE YOU CAN SHED SOME 15 LGHT ON SOME OTHER DOCUMENTS -- THE SHORT S, OF 16 COURSE, YES. i YOU WLL FNO WHAT MR. COLBY SAYS, WHEN PKE TURNS TO HM, ON EXCUSE ME. --- THE PRECEDNG, ON PAGE DOWN OKAY, --- BELOW, ABOUT THE MDDLE OF THE PAGE. OKAY, F COULD FOLLOW UP ON THE QUESTON TO,-....J 25 WHCH YOU SAD THE SHORT ANSWER WAS YES. ~._..._._.._ i

6 , ,---1-, " 1 YEAH. 2 YOU NOCATED, BELEVE, THAT THERE WAS A 3 PREPARED STATEMENT THAT WAS SUBMTTED ON BEHALF OF 4 THE CA TO THE PKE COMMTTEE. 5 THAT S CORRECT. 6 AND THEN N ADDTON NDVDUALS APPEARED BEFORE 7 THE PKE COMMTTEE AND ANSWERED QUESTONS ORALLY. 8 THAT WAS WHAT WAS TRYNG TO CLARFY RGHT NOW, 9 BECAUSE THNK N CAN, UH, EXPLAN THE WHOLE O ~ihng SUCC NCTLY, F YOU WOULD LKE FOR ME TO. 11 OK A Y 12 AND THS WLL ALSO CLARFY THE NATURE OF THREE 13 DOCUMENTS N YOUR POSSESSON, THS BENG ONE. 14 F CAN JUST TRY TO CLARFY MY PONT, FRST, AND 15 l"hen 16 SURE, FNE. i --- YOU GO AHEAD, BECAUSE WANT TO TE THS N TO WHAT YOU SAD YESTERDAY AND MAKE SURE THAT UNDERSTAND T. ALL RGHT. 21 THE PREPARED STATEMENT THAT WAS SUBMTTED ON 22 BEHALF OF THE CA TO THE PKE COMMTTEE WAS A 23 WRTTEN STATEMENT, CORRECT? 24 YES. AS WAS ABOUT TO EXPLAN, THE PREPARED 25 STATEMENT 15 THAT STATEMENT ON SAMUEL ADAMS

7 347 THAT WAS NCLUDED N THE CLP PACKET THAT GOT 2 F~OM GENERAL WESTMORELAND, DECEMBER 75, THE ONE 3 THAT HAS THE ERRONEOUS HANDWRTTEN NOTATON THAT 4 AM THE AUTHOR. FORGET HOW YOU NUMBERED THAT, BUT ARE WE BOTH N AGREEMENT ON WHAT DOCUMENT THAT WE ARE TALKNG ABOUT? YES. T -- THS S A DOCUMENT THAT YOU RECEVED N A PACKAGE FROM ETHER GENERAL WESTMORELAND OR MR. HENDERSON? THAT S CORRECT. AND THE PARTCULAR DOCUMENT N THE PACKAGE THAT YOU ARE REFERRNG TO S A STATEMENT ON SAMUEL ADAMS, T HAS AT THE TOP AT HANDWRTTEN NOTE, "WRTTEN BY GEORGE CARVER", WliCH YOU HAVE S NDCATED TO ME WAS ON THE DOCUMENT WHEN YOU 16 RECEVED T THAT S CORRECT.._-- EnHER FROM GENERAL WESTMORELAND OR MR. tienderson. BUT THAT THE HANDWRTTEN NOTATON S NOT, N YOUR VEW, AN ACCURATE NOTATON? 21 THAT S CORRECT, BECAUSE WAS NOT THE PRNCPAL 22 [)RAFTOR ON THAT. 23 EUT, NOW SURE, FNE. 25 T WLL ONLY TAKE ME A FEW SHORT MOMENTS --- J

8 ~ _ _._--"-"-_._ NO, SURE. EXCUSE ME. YEAH. TO CLARFY SOMETHNG. S THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU JUST REFERRED TO THE WRTTEN STATEMENT THAT WAS SUBMTTED TO THE PKE COMMTTEE BY THE CA OR S T A DRAFT OF THAT? NO. THS, SO FAR AS CAN ASCERTAN, S THE 8 STATEMENT AS SUBMTTED SO FAR AS CAN ASCERTAN, 9 BECAUSE T S DONE N A FORMAT AND N A TYPESCRPT 10 THNG THAT WAS THAT WHCH WE JSED N FNAL STATEMENTS, NOT N DRAFT. DO YOU FOLLOW ME? YES. NOW, F YOU WLL TURN BACK -- BECAUSE T S 14 GERMANE -- TO PAGE i OKAY. MR. COLBY COMMENTS ON THS DOCUMENT. RGHT. NOW, -- we CAN, WE CAN REALLY GO AT THS ONE OF TWO WAYS. ETHER -- BUT THNK THAT T ~1AY GO A LTTLE FAS-TER F YOU JUST LET ME ASK A F'EW QUESTONS AT THE OUTSET. 21 OKAY. 22 AND THEN F YOU THNK THAT THERE S ANYTHNG THAT 23 YOU WANT TO ADD YOU CAN DO THAT WELL, 'LL DO T ANYWAY THAT YOU WANT TO. JUST THOUGHT THAT T MGHT BE SMPL ER F JUST ~

9 349 '-~ CLARFED THE DOCUMENTS, AND YOU CAN ASK ANY 2 QUESTONS YOU LET ME ASK THE QUESTONS FRST, -- SURE. --- BECAUSE THAT -- F ONLY BECAUSE --- OKAY, FNE. --- THAT'S THE WAY DEPOSTONS GO --- OKAY, FNE. 9 THE PKE COMMTTEE TESTMONY BY THE CA 10 REPRESENTATVES, AS UNDERSTAND T, CONSSTED OF THREE DFFERENT KNDS OF TESTMONY OR PRESENTATON. ONE, THERE WAS A WRTTEN STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF 14 THE CA THAT WAS SUBMTTED. 15 SECOND, MR. COLBY, AT LEAST, GAVE A STATEMENT THAT S CORRECT ORALLY TO THE PKE COMMTTEE. RGHT. AND, THREE, MR. COLBY AND OTHf:RS, NCLUDNG YOURSELF, THEN ANSwERED ORAL QUESTONS. 21 S THAT CORRECT? 22 THAT S SUBSTANTALLY CORRECT. THE COMMTTEE DD 23 NOT RUN THNGS QUTE THAT TDLY BUT THAT S, N 24 ESSENCE, WHAT HAPPENEDi BECAUSE THEY KEPT 25 NTERRUPTNG COLBY AND ASKNG QUESTONS AT A..J ~ ~----~ :--- -

10 _..._--_. 350 COUPLE OF PONTS. BUT ESSENTALLY THAT S 2 ACCURATE.. 3 NOW THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ACCOMPANYNG COLBY ARE 4 ENUMERATED ON THE FRST PAGE. T WAS -- BLL 5 COLBY, DRECTOR OF CENTRAL NTELLGENCE AGENCY, 6 WHCH S NCORRECT BECAUSE HE WAS DRECTOR OF 7 CENTRAL NTELLGENCE; THERE'S PAUL V. WALSH, WHO 8 WAS THEN ASSOCATE DEPUTY DRECTOR FOR 9 NTELLGENCE; GEORGE CARVER, DEPUTY FOR NATONAL i NTELLGENCE OFFCE, AS THEN HAD; MTCHELL RAGOVEN (PHONETC), SPECAL COUNSEL TO THE DRECTOR; AND GEORGE W. ALLEN, WHO WAS THEN DRECTOR OF THE MAGERY AND ANALYSES SERVCE; PLUS JAMES C. GRAHAM, FORMER CA EMPLOYEE, WHO ALSO MADE A STATEMENT AND HE HAD BEEN THE - A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF NATONAL ESTMATES WHO HAD CHARED THE PRODUCTON OF NE NOW, WHEN MR. COLBY OPENS, HE SAYS, (READNG): "'MR. CHARMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMTTEE: 'WELCOME TO THS OPPORTUNTY TO APPEAR BEFORE YOUR COMMTTEE AND RESPOND TO THE TESTMONY PRESENTED 'TO THS COMMTTEE BY MR. SAMUE:L ADAMS ON SEPTEMBER l8th. 11R. CHARMAN, AS YOU KNOW, HAVE FLED WTH THS (;OMMTTEE A LENGTHY STATEMENT WHCH PRESENTS N

11 .. -.~-, ,... " '---, 1 SOME DETAL THE AGENCY'S RESPONSE TO THE 2 ALLEGATONS MADE BY MR. ADAMS." -- THAT S THS 3 (NDCATNG DOCUMENT), EXCUSE ME. THAT S THE STATEMENT ON SAMUEL ADAMS THAT WAS APPENDED N THE PACKET THAT RECEVED FROM ETHER GENERAL WESTMORELAND OR MR. HENDERSON. T S ALSO THE STATEMENT, S T NOT, THAT S, l...--j 8 NCLUDED N THE PUBLSHED HEARNGS THAT WERE 9 PUBLSHED BY THE PKE COMMTTEE? 10 AM FARLY SURE THAT YOU ARE ACCURATE. HAVE NOT -- THE VERSON OF THE PKE COMMTTEE TESTMONY THAT HAVE WORKED FROM S THS DRAFT 13 (NDCATNG). HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THE 14 PUBLSHED VERSON ANO COMPARED THEM LNE BY LNE, 15 BUT WOULD PRESUME THAT ALMOST T CERTANLY S. 16 WOULD SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT THAT HAS BEEN 17 PREVOUSLY MARKED AS PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57. SURE. AM JUST TRYNG TO CLARFY WHAT WE HAVE GOT N FRONT OF US, THAT S ALL. AND WOULD SHOW YOU THAT DOCUMENT AND N 21 PARTCULAR DRECT YOUR ATTENTON TO THE PAGE THAT 22 BEARS THE NUMBER "2851" N THE LOWER RGHTHAND 23 CORNER... J 24 LET ME (SCUFFLE OF PAPERS), TO BE SURE THAT WE 25 DON'T --- (UPON REVEW), FROM READNG THE FRST

12 _._._. ~., " ~ n-"l.. -- "T- 353,--1 READ FROM A PREPARED TEXT AS OPPOSED TO AS OPPOSED TO SUBSEQUENT ANSWERS TO QUESTONS. RGHT. OKAY. 6 AND,' AS YOU NDCATED, WHEN MR. COLBY MADE WHAT 7 YOU REFER TO AS HS CONNECTED OR CONTNUOUS 8 STATEMENT THAT'S RGHT. --- HE WAS READNG FROM A PREPARED STATEMENT BUT HE WAS MAKNG THAT STATEMENT ORALLY. THAT S CORRECT. NOW, PROR TO THE TME THAT MR. COLBY AND YOU APPEARED BEFORE THE PKE COMMTTEE, HAD YOU. J 15 DSCUSSED WTH MR. COLBY AND HAD AN OPPORTUNTY TO! 16 REVEW BOTH THE WRTTEN SUBMSSON THAT MR. COLBY i WAS GONG TO MAKE TO THE PKE COMMTTEE, WHCH S REFLECTED BEGNNNG AT PAGE 285l OF PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57, AND THE ORAL STATEMENT THAT MR. COLBY WAS GONG TO READ NTO THE RECORD, WHCH HE 21 COMMENCES TO DO AT PAGE 2845 OF THE HEARNGS THAT 22 HAVE BEEN MARKED AS PLANTFF'S EXHBT WELL, F YOUR PAGE 2845 HAS THE SAME AS MY PAGE 24 46l7, WHCH ASSUME THAT T S, YES. 25 NOW, WHEN YOU SA D "YE S", DD YOU MEAN THAT YOU

13 T nt- T"" 351+ HAD HAD AN OPPORTUNTY TO REVEW BOTH THOSE 2 STATEMENTS? HAVE NO POSTVE RECOllECTON OF DONG SO, BUT GVEN THE NATURE OF H POSTON AT THE TME AND G VEN THE ROlE OF ONE OTHER DOCUMENT THAT WANT TO AlSO ClARFY, THAT YOU AlSO HAVE, MUST HAVE DONE SO. BY MR. BOES: MAY SUGGEST THAT WE MARK THE VERS ON THAT THE WTNESS S USNG OF THE HEARNGS AS PX-57- (EXHBT SO ENTERED BY REPORTER) BY DEPONENT: PX? BY MR. BOES: i BY YES, THE PRNTED VERSON HAS PlANTFF'S EXHBT 57. DEPONENT: BEEN MARKED AS OKAY, FNE. SURE. NOW, 'VE GOT TO FND THAT PECE OF PAPER WHCH, (REVEW CF DOCUMENTS). EXAMNATON RESUMED BY MR. BOES: 21 MR. CARVER? 22 HUM? 23 CAN 24 2S BY VDEO OPERATOR: YOU'VE GOT less THAN A MNUTE OF TAPE left.

14 , ln--"--,' 355 BY DEPONENT: 2 OKAY. 3 BY MR. BOES: 4 WE ARE JUST ABOUT OUT OF TAPE. WHLE YOU ARE 5 LOOKNG FOR THAT, WHY DON'T WE CHANGE THE TAPE? 6 BY DEPONENT: 7 ALL RGHT, FNE. 8 (BREF RECESS) 9 BY DEPONENT: 10 NOW, MAY DRECT YOUR ATTENTON TO THE DOCUMENT THAT GAVE YOU ON MONDAY, WHCH BEARS NO DATE, 12 CONSSTS OF TEN PAGES, DOUBLE SPACED TYPESCRPT WTH PEN NOTATONS THEREN, AND, AS TOLD YOU ON ONE OF OUR FRST TWO DAYS, THS WAS A DRAFT THAT 15 DCTATEDNTHELASTFALLOF75. AND THEN THE YOU CAN WRTE ANYTHNG YOU WANT ON T PEN CORRECT--, MADE MY OWN PEN CORRECTONS ON T. NOW, THAT -- CAN WE SOMEHOW DENTFY THAT DOCUMENT OR PUT A NUMBER ON T? BY MR. BO ES : BY DEPONENT: WELL, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO WRTE ON T? BY MR. BOES: WHATEVER YOU WOULD LKE, TO DENTFY T. 25 BY DEPONENT: J

15 356 OKAY, WELL -- 'M CALLNG T "DRAFT 75 NPUT", 2 S THAT AGREEABLE~ 3 BY MR. BOES: 4 WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO. S BY DEPONENT: 6 NOw, THS DOCUMENT was ETHER GVEN TO MR. COLBY 7 OR TO THE PRNCPAL DRAFTOR OF THE CONNECTED 8 STATEMENT OR QUTE POSSBLY BOTH. T WAS MY 9 CONTRBUTON TO THE PREPARATON FOR COLBY'S 10 TESTMONY BEFORE THE'PKE COMMTTEE. AND CALL THAT TO YOUR ATTENTON FOR TWO REASONS: 12 TO CLARFY THE NATURE OF THS DOCUMENT; AND 13 B. BECAUSE N T'S TEXT YOU WLL SEE THAT T 14 ADDRESSES SOME OF THE QUESTONS ABOUT ORGAN- 15 ZATONAL CONCEPTS AND METHODOLOGY THAT YOU 16 ANO WERE DSCUSSNG YESTERDAY. 17 FAR ENOUGH? OKAY, THAT CLARFES THOSE THREE THNGS. NOW, WOULD LKE TO SHED -- 1'0 SHED A LTTLE BT MORE LGHT ON MCNAMARA'S-1 AND BY MR. BOES: 22 OKAY. F YOU ARE GONG TO ANOTHER SUBJECT, BY DEPONENT: 24 WELL, AM GONG BACK, THOUGHT, TO A SUBJECT 25 THAT WE WERE ALREADY ON.,,.._' "_' [ "1---1-

16 T '1n BY MR. BOES: 2 NO, MEAN ANOTHER SUBJECT THAN THE ONE THAT YOU 3 HAVE JUST BEEN ADDRESSNG. 4 BY WTNESS: 5 YES. 6 BY MR. BOES: 7 COULD FOLLOW UP ON SOME OF THE 8 BY DEPONENT: 9 BY ALL MEANS, OF COURSE. 10 BY MR. BOES: 11 ' --- REMARKS THAT YOU JUST MAD:? 12 BY DEPONENT: 13 SURE. LET ME BEND OVER AND PCK THS UP 14 (REFERRNG TO FALLEN DOCUMENTS.) OKAY, GO AHEAD. 15 EXAMNATON RESUMED BY MR. BOES: 16 WTH RESPECT TO THE MATERAL THAT APPEARS ON PAGE i 4615 AND THE FOLLOWNG PAGES OF PLANT!F:='S EXHBT 57-A AND WHCH S REPRNTED ON THE PAGES THAT BEGN AT PAGE 2845 OF PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57, RGHT. THAT S MR. COLBY'S STATEMENT THAT HE READ TO THE PKE COMMTTEE? TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTON, YES. NOW, AM GONG TO ASK YOU TO USE PLANTFF'S

17 , ln-"-,', -~ '------' EXHBT 57 AS OPPOSED TO 57-A, BECAUSE THAT S 2 WHAT HAS BEEN USED BEFORE AND WANT TO KEEP THE 3 PAGES 4 5 SURE, THAT'S FNE. --- AS CONSSTENT AS CAN. 6 RGHT. 7 AND LET ME ASK YOU TO TURN TO PAGES 2845 AND 2846 S- OF 9 OF THESE 10 PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57. YOU ARE READNG THE NUMBERS N THE LOWER RGHTHAND 12 CORNER, THERE YOU GO, RGHT. 13 AND AT PAGE 2845 S WHERE MR. COLBY COMMENCES 14 READNG HS PREPARED STATEMENT, S THAT CORRECT? 15 THAT S CORRECT. 16 AND THAT CONTNUES ON PAGE i i THAT S CORRECT. S AND T S ON PAGE 2846 THAT MR. COLBY'S STATEMENT THAT YOU READ NTO THE RECORD A MOMENT AGO APPEARS, BEGNNNG WTH THE PARAGRAPH THAT SAYS, "N MAYcAND.oJUN; OF 67 THE- CHA REPORTS TO. OFFCALS N THE STATE ANO DEFENSE DEPARTMENT CONTANED OUR ESTMATES THAT THE SZE OF ORGANZED i, i.j :24 25 VETCONG MANPOWER WAS ON THE ORDER OF 50,000." UM HUMM, -- NO, 500,000.

18 _ ,000. YEAH. HE THEN CONTNUES ON TO SAY THE QUOTE THAT YOU 4 GAVE, WHCH S A QUOTE FROM MCNAMARA-2, THE MAY 5 23, 67 REPORT. 6 UM HUMM. 7 AND THEN ENDS WTH THE LAST SENTENCE THAT YOU 8 QUOTED, "THE 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA 9 N THS REPORT COULD BE COMPARED WTH AN OFFCAL 10 MLTARY NUMBER AT THAT TME OF 292,00." WELL, ONE SMALL NTPCK. HE DOESN'T END THERE, BECAUSE HE THEN GOES ON TO SAY, "MR. CHARMAN, BELEVE THESE QUOTATONS FROM OFFCAL CA 14 PUBLCATONS SHOW CLEARLY THAT THE CA DD NOT 15 SHRNK FROM PUSHNG THE CASE FOR HGHER FGURES 16 AND MADE NO ATTEMPT TO PRODUCE "PREDCTED 17 ACCEPTABLE" ESTMATES.", CLOSe: QUOTES WHEN SAY THAT HE ENDED THERE, THAT WAS THAT YOU READ. THAT'S RGHT. AND THAT S THE LAST SENTENCE ON PAGE 46 OF PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57-A, CORRECT, SR? THAT S CORRECT. AND THAT S WHERE THE QUOTATON THAT YOU HAD READ NTO THE RECORD BEFORE ENDED

19 ,---1 YEAH, (AFFRMATVE NOD). 2 AND WHAT WANT TO DO S, WANT TO FOCUS ON THE 3 MATERAL THAT YOU REFERENCED. 4 OKAY. 5 YOU NDCATED, BELEVE, THAT THE SENTENCE THAT 6 SAYS, "THE 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA N 7 THS REPORT COULD BE COMPARED WTH AN OFFCAL 8 MLTARY NUMBER AT THAT TME OF 292,000." WAS A 9 SENTENCE THAT YOU HAD SOME DSAGREEMENT WTH.! ~ O YES, DO NOW. WHETHER HAD ANY AT THE TME, DON'T KNOW OKAY, AND WOULD LKE TO PURSUE THAT A LTTLE --- CERTANLY. 14 WHEN MR. COLBY TOLD THE PKE COMMTTEE THE ;00,000 S FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA N THS REPORT COULD 16 BE COMPARED WTH AN OFFCAL MLTARY NUMBER AT 17 THAT TME OF 292,000, T S CL.EAR, S T NOT, THAT, FROM THE CONTEXT, THAT THE 500,000 FGURE THAT MR. COLBY S REFERENCNG S THE 500,000 FGURE THAT S CONTANED N THE MAY 23, 67 CA 21 REPORT THAT YOU HAVE DENOMNATED "MCNAMARA-2"? 22 YES, BUT WTH ONE CAVEAT. A -- AGREED THE 23 MMEDATELY PRECEDNG QUOTATON, WHCH PUTS THE ,000 FGURE N PROPER CONTEXT AND SORTS TO BUY.J AS A SOURCE OF BY -- UH -- SLGHT DSAGREEMENT,

20 361 BECAUSE HE SAYS "WE BELEVE THE VETCONG S PARAMLTARY AND POLTCAL ORGANZATON S STLL PROBABLY FAR LARGER THAN U.S. OFFCAL ORDER OF BATTLE STATSTCS NDCATES..." -- AND THEN THERE S AN ELSON OF -- EXCUSE ME. --- THREE DOTS. AND THEN HE SAYS, "THUS THE OVERALL STRENGTH OF THE COMMUNST ORGANZED FORCE STRUCTURE N SOUTH VETNAM S PROBABLY N THE 500,000 RANGE AND MAY EVEN BE HGHER." YES, NDEED. AND BUT THAT S THAT S NOT A QUOTATON, PRECSE FGURE. FROM THE CA DOCUMENT, WHCH --- THAT S CORRECT. --- WAS DATED MAY 23, 67. THAT S CORRECT. WHCH YOU HAVE DENTFED AS MCNAMARA-2? THAT S CORRECT. AND T S CLEAR WHEN MR. COLBY, N THE NEXT SENTENCE, SAYS, "THE 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA N THS REPORT S REFERRNG TO THAT ~. T_'_ _ ' _--

21 ,000 FGURE RGHT HE HAS JUST QUOTED. 4 THAT S CORRECT. 5 WHCH WAS A QUOTE FROM THE MAY 6 TO MR. MCNAMARA, CORRECT? 23, 67 CA REPORT 7 BUT THERE T S EXPLCTLY SAD TO BUT FRST, BE A SOFT FGURE, NOT A HARD FGURE. 10 BY MR. TUTTLE: 11 MR. BOES, WOULD YOU LET THE WTNESS FNSH HS ANSWER? BY MR. BOES: 14 YES, EXCEPT THAT DON'T THNK THAT HE S 15 RESPONDNG TO MY QUESTON J BY DEPONENT: WELL, AM SAYNG THAT THE 500, BY MR. BO ES : EXCUSE ME. LET ~E JUST RESPOND TO YOUR COUNSEL. THNK THE RECORD WLL SHOW THAT HAVE BEEN FARLY PATENT THS MORNNG N PERMTTNG THE WTNESS TO, AS HE PUT T, "DRECT MY ATTENTON" TO VAROUS THNGS AND PRETTY MUCH CONTROL WHERE THS EXAMNATON WENT. FROM TME TO TME WOULD LKE TO BE ABLE TO ASK A....._..,.-_...._...._ ln-- T

22 T l--:ln QUESTON THAT GET A RESPONSE TO. 2 HAVE TOLD THS WTNESS SEVERAL TMES -- DON'T 3 THNK HE NEEDS THE NSTRUCTON, BUT -- HAVE TOLD 4 HM THAT HE S FREE TO EXPLAN WHATEVER T S HE 5 FEELS THAT HE HAS TO EXPLAN. BUT WHEN ASK A 6 RELATVELY SMPLE QUESTON WOULD TO AT LEAST 7 BEGN WTH A RESPONSE TO THAT QUESTON. 8 MY QUESTON HERE a Y MR. TU TTLE: 10 HE GAVE YOU A RESPONSE HERE. BY MR. BOES: 12 NO, -- THNK F YOU READ THE ANSWER BACK THAT 13 YOU WLL SEE THAT HE WENT TO WHAT YOU REFER TO AS 14 THE ELABORATON, SKPPNG THE ANSWER. THNK i THAT YOU WLL SEE THAT THE ANSWER BEGNS WTH THE WORD "BUT" OR SOMETHNG. aut F -- THNK THAT CAN SPEED T'ALONG F YOU'LL JUST LET ME ASK A COUPLE OF QUESTONS. BY MR. TUTTLE: CAN WE READ BY MR. BOES: OF ALL THE DEPOSTONS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN, -- BY MR. TUTTLE: HAVE --- BY MR. BOES:

23 , HAVE ASKED FEWER QUESTONS N THE LAST TWO 2 DAYS THAN HAVE N ANY HALF DAY PEROD. THAT S ALL RGHT WTH ME, UP TO A PONT. BUT AT SOME 4 PONT WOULD JUST LKE -- THNK THAT CAN MOVE 5 T ALONG FASTER F WE PROCEED N A TRADTONAL 6 DEPOSTON MODE, N WHCH GET TO ASK A FEW 7 QUESTONS. 8 OBVOUSLY LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE ARE GONG TO HAVE A 9 CHANCE TO EXAMNE THS WTNESS AND, AND REALLY 10 MEAN T WHEN SAY THAT F THERE S SOMETHNG THAT 11 HE WANTS TO, HE WANTS TO EXPLAN, AM REALloY 12 HAPPY TO HAVE HM DO,THAT. BUT ALL AM TRYNG TO 13 DO S, S SET THE FRAMEWORK FOR WHAT SOME i REFERENCES ARE AND THEN WE WLL GO ON TO WHAT THE EXPLANATON FOR T S. BY,'1R. TUTTLE: BELEVE THE WTNESS AGREED WTH YOUR CHARACTERZATON BUT MERELY ATTEMPTED TO ELABORATE. F YOU WANT TO ASK THE QUESTON AGAN,. -! BY MR. BOES: THE RECORD WLL SHOW BY MR. TUTTLE: 24 DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THE: RECORD. 25 QUESTON AGAN. ASK THE

24 ----'-~ T ' ~ :--ln T.. ' 365 BY MR. BOES: 2 OKAY. 3 EXAMNATON RESUMED BY MR. BOES: 4 ~ET ME GO BACK TO THE PORTON OF MR. CO~BY'S 5 PREPARED STATEMENT THAT YOU REFERENCED EAR~ER. 6 A PORTON WHCH APPEARS ON PAGE 46 OF 7 P~ANTFF'S EXHBT 57-A AND ON PAGE 2846 OF 8 P~ANTFF'S EXHBT i RGHT. AND THAT PORTON BEGNS, "N MAY AND JUNE, 67 CA REPORTS TO OFFCA~S N THE STATE AND DEFENSE DEPARTMENTS CONTANED OUR ESTMATES THAT THE SZE OF ORGANZED VETCONG MANPOWER WAS ON THE ORDER OF 500,000." AND T S C~EAR, S T NOT, SR, TO YOU, THAT WHEN MR. CO~BY REFERS TO "OUR" ESTMATES HE S REFERRNG TO THE CA ESTMATES THERE? THAT S CORRECT. THE NEXT SENTENCE SAYS, "THE MAY 67 REPORT, A SPECA~ ASSESSMENT PREPARED FOR SECRETARY MCNAMARA EXP~GH~Y OUTLNED-OUR OFF-E'REf~CE'S WTH 'EACH OF THE COMPONENTS N MACV'S ORDER OF BATT~E, AND CONC~UDED "WE BELEVE THE VETCONG PARAMLTARY AND PO~TCA~ ORGANZATON S ST~~ PROBAB~Y FAR 25 ~ARGER THAN OFFCA~ U.S. ORDER OF BATT~E

25 366 STATSTCS NDCATE..., THUS THE OVERALL STRENGTH 2 OF THE COMMUNST ORGANZED FORCE STRUCTURE N 3 SOUTH VETNAM S PROBABLY N THE 500,000 RANGE AND 4 MAY BE EVEN HGHER." AND THAT PORTON S A 5 QUOTATON FROM THE MAY 67 REPORT, WHCH N 6 PLANTFF'S EXHBT 57-A S SET OUT N TALCS. 7 CORRECT. 8 THERE THEN FOLLOWS A STATEMENT BY MR. COLBY, "THE 9 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA N THS REPORT 10 COULD BE COMPARED WTH AN OFFCAL MLTARY NUMBER AT THAT TME OF 292,00)." CORRECT? THAT S WHAT T SAYS, YES. AND T S CLEAR THAT WHEN MR. COLBY REFERS TO THE ,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY THE CA N THS 15 REPORT, HE S REFERRNG TO THE FGURE THAT 16 MMEDATELY PRECEDES T N THE QUOTE, "FROM THE 17 MAY 23, 67 CA REPORT" THAT WAS PREPARED FOR SECRETARY MCNAMARA, WHCH YOU MCNAMARA-2; CORRECT? HAVE DESCRBED AS UH, -- YOU SAY YOU ARE ASKNG A RELATVELY SMPLE 21 QUESTON. WHAT AM TRYNG 1'0 EXPLAN S THAT T 22 S NOT THAT SMPLE. 23 YES, THS 500,000 TRACKS Wn1 THE 500, MMEDATELY BEFORE T, BUT WHEN YOU SAYS "TRACKS", ---

26 , _-_._-_._ :~ WELL, THEY ARE THE SAME. WE ARE TALKNG ABOUT THE 3 YOU SAY "WE". MY QUE~TON S, WAS MR. COLBY -- R. 4 COLBY'S TESTMONY, WHEN MR. COLBY REFERS TO THS 5 500,000 FGURE, YOU WERE THERE? 6 WAS THERE. 7 AND YOU HAD, T S YOUR TESTMONY, REVEWED THS 8 PREPARED STATEMENT BEFORE T WAS GVEN, CORRECT? 9 THAT S CORRECT. 10 AND T WAS CLEAR TO YOU THAT MR. COLBY NTENDED THAT WHEN HE SAD THE 500,000 FGURE PRESENTED BY 12 THE CA N THS REPORT, HE WAS REFERRNG BACK TO 13 THE 500,000 NUMBER THAT S NCLUDED N THE 14 QUOTATON THAT MMEDATELY PRECEDES T..J i NOW YOU HAVE PUT T CORRECTLY. HE WAS REFERRNG TO THE 500,000 NUMBER. "FGURE" S NHERENTLY AMBGUOUS BECAUSE THE 500,000 S EXPLCTLY EXPLANED N THE QUOTATON AND N THS EARLER REFERENCE TO T AS AN NDCATON OF ORDER OF MAGNTUDE, NOT AS A HARD, PRECSE FGURE. WELL, MR. COLBY N HS.PREPARED TESTMONY, RGHT. --- WHCH YOU REVEWED AND DURNG --- YEAH. --- THE READNG OF WHCH YOU WERE PRESENT, USES

27 358 THE WORD "FGURE". 2 HE USES THE WORD FGURE, WHCH HE PROBABLY SHOULD 3 4 MAKE. HAVE AMPLFED. THAT S ALL THAT WAS TRYNG TO 5 OKAY. AND WHEN YOU REFER TO THE 500,000 FGURE 6 BENG AN ORDER OF MAGNTUDE, ARE YOU REFERRNG 7 BACK TO THE PORTON OF MR. COLBY'S TESTMONY THAT 8 WE BOTH READ N EARLER WHEN HE SAYS, "N MAY AND 9 JUNE, 57 CA REPORTS TO OFFCALS N THE STATE 10 AND DEFENSE DEPARTMENTS CONTANED OUR ESTMATES 11 THAT THE SZE OF ORGANZED VETCONG MANPOWER WAS 12 ON THE ORDER OF 500,OOO."? 13 WELL, AM REFERRNG TO THAT AND THERE'S -- THREE 14 TMES HE USES THE NUMBER "500,000" WTH WHAT 15 THNK HE NTENDED TO BE THE SAME DENOTATON. 16 ONCE HE SAYS THAT T "WAS ON THE ORDER OF i 500,000." THE SECOND TME HE SAYS, "THE OVERALL STRENGTH OF THE COMMUNST ORGANZED FORCE STRUCTURE N SOUTH VETNAM WAS PROBABLY N THE 500,000 RANGE AND MAY 21 EVEN BE HGHER. n 22 AND 23 MAY EVEN BE HGHER. 24 YEAH. AND THE THRD TME HE SAYS, "THE 500, FGURE... THE WORD "FGURE" CAN CARRY A

28 ~ 369 '--' 1 CONNOTATON OF PRECSON T WOULD HAVE ERRONEOUS 2 FOR HM TO CONVEY AND DON'T THNK THAT HE 3 NTENDED TO CONVEY, AS NDCATED 8Y THE CAVEAT 4 SURROUNDNG THE EXACTLY SAME NUMBER N HS TWO 5 MMEDATELY PREVOUS USES OF T. 6 DD YOU EVER TELL ME. COLBY THAT YOU BELEVED 7 THAT HS USE OF THE WORD "FGURE" N CONNECTON 8 WTH THE NUMBER 500,000 HERE MGHT CARRY AN 9 ERRONEOUS CONNOTATON? 10 HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RECOLLECTON OF WHETHER 11 TOLD HM OR NOT, AND DOUBT F WAS PARSNG T 12 QUTE THAT CAREFULLY. 13 NOW, OTHER THAN THE PROBLEM THAT YOU HAVE WTH 14 WHETHER THE WORD "FGURE" HAS AN ERRONEOUS 15 CONNOTATON, DO YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM NO, HAVE --- i._-- WTH THS SENTENCE. --- NO OTHER PROBLEM. OH, EXCUSE ME, DO HAve ONE PROBLEM, 'CAUSE WOULD HAVE TO REV lew T -- WOULD HAVE TO REVEW THE COMPONENTS OF THE 292, MACV NUMBERS AND THE COMPONENTS OF OUR 500, NUMBER TO SATSFY MYSELF THAT THEY ARE REALLY 23 QUTE AS COMPARABLE AS BLL HERE NDCATES... j 24 AND BY "BLL", YOU MEAN BLL COLBY. 25 EXCUSE ME, SORRY, -- YES ~ ~--,