Benjamin Hebblethwaite interviews Welele Noubout At Lakou Souvnans, Gonaïves, Haiti, March 31, 2013

Transcription

1 Benjamin Hebblethwaite interviews Welele Noubout At Lakou Souvnans, Gonaïves, Haiti, March 31, 2013 Edited by Benjamin Hebblethwaite Transcribed and translated by Rose-Laure Jean Joseph, Megan Raitano and Tahiri Jean-Baptiste Click here to watch the interview Ben: Mwen pral pale ak Welele. Man: Welele? Ben: Ou gen dwa tande, koute. Man: Welele? Ben: Welele. Ben: I am going to speak with Welele. Man: Welele? Ben: You re welcome to listen. Man: Welele? Ben: Welele. 1

2 Man: Se ou yo rele Welele? Welele: Se mwen k Welele, ou pa t konnen? Man: O, o se on bagay mwen tande lontan man. Man: Abobo! Welele: Abobo! Man: Oke, oke antouka gen yon dènye bagay. Nou menm nou pa sèvi avèk move bagay bò isit se. Welele: Se Ginen. Man: Ginen, se sa k fè yo mete m siveyan. Ben: Ou se siveyan? Man: Wi, wi. Ben: A bon, oke oke. Welele: Pou moun pa fè vye bagay. Man: Pou moun pa fè vey bagay pa bon. Ben: Oke oke oke. Men: Se sa k fè m siveye. Welele: Gad, gade se tankou le tanpili tanpilye. Ben: Tanpliye. Welele: Franmason, moun ki gade tonm Jezi. Man: Are you the one they call Welele? Welele: I am Welele, you didn t know that? Man: Oh, I heard that a long time ago! Man: Abobo! 1 Welele: Abobo! Man: Okay, well there s one last thing. We do not use bad things here. Welele: It s Ginen. Man: Ginen, this is why they made me a watchman. Ben: You are a watchman? Man: Yes. Ben: Oh good, okay okay. Welele: So people don t do bad things. Man: So people don t do things that aren t good. Man: This is why I am a watchman. Welele: Look, it is like he is a tanpili tanpilyè. Ben: Tanpliyè. Welele: A mason, the people who watched 1 Abobo! is a Vodou expression of praise that emanates from the Rada Rite. A rough equivalent is halellujah in Biblical English. 2

3 Jesus tomb. Ben: Ou pare? Cameraman: Wi. Ben: Ou kòmanse deja? Cameraman: Wi. Ben: Oke bon, jodi a nou la avèk Welele isit nan Souvnans pou fè on ti entèvyou nan kontèks achiv Vodou, ki baze nan Inivèsite La Florid. Welele pale nou de ou memn, kote ou fèt, di nou kèk bagay. Welele: Kote m soti, m vin? Ben: Kote ou soti? Welele: Mwen rive la. Bon m ap salye ou Ben. Epi fom di ou, anpil respè epi onè e felisitasyon pou travay w ap fè paske antanke Ayisyen, moun ki pratike Vodou antanke Voduizan sa toujou enterese nou jwenn de moun ki enterese avèk sa yo rele Vodou. Paske si nou fè istwa Vodou, an Ayiti, se nou pran rejete, ki jan nou t ap tiye yon lòt, ki jan nou t ap tiye houngan, tiye manbo, kraze tanbou, tiye ounsi, pou yo te bay yon levanjil, pa kont nou chita sou yon levanjil tou paske si ou w ap swiv byen, anvan Vodouizan fè tout bagay li di, vini Bondye vini nan sant kè mwen. Sa ke li p ap pase ò de Li ke Bondye sot nan syèl la. Alò, mwen kwè nan respè sa ke tou. Vodou se yon bagay inivèsèl, se lespri an jeneral sa depann ki jan ou menm sèvi l. Se tankou dlo ou genyen lakay ou, men nan douch la. Gen dlo cho gen dlo frèt, ou sèvi ak dlo cho si ou bezwen dlo cho, ou sèvi ak dlo frèt si ou bezwen dlo frèt. Ben: Are you ready? Cameraman: Yes. Ben: Did you start already? Cameraman: Yes. Ben: Okay well, today we are here with Welele, here at Souvnans to conduct an interview for the Vodou Archive based at the University of Florida. Welele, tell us about yourself, where you were born, just a couple of things. Welele: Where did I come from? Ben: Where are you from? Welele: I came here. Well, I want to greet you Ben and I have to say, I have a lot of respect, and honor, and congratulations for the work you are doing on behalf of Haitians, on behalf of Vodouists. It is always interesting to find out about people who are interested in Vodou. Because if we look at the history of Vodou in Haiti, you will find the anti-vodou Campaign. This was a movement where people were killing others, houngan, mambo, breaking drums, and killing ounsi to establish an evangelism despite the fact that we are also well established in an evangelism. Because if you look carefully, before Vodouists do anything, they say, Come God, enter my heart. They will not go outside Him than the heavenly God. Well, I believe in that respect too. Vodou is universal, it s the spirit in general that depends on how you use it. It s like the water you have in your house, in your bathroom. There is hot and cold water, you use hot water when you want hot water and cold water when you need cold water. 3

4 Welele: Alò, Welele soti nan Benen, on kote Jacmel ki pase tout vil nan seminè. Alò mwen te sipoze on pè Katolik. Ben: A bon, oke. Welele: Mwen te sipoze yon pè Katolik, men apre tout istwa nou konnen Nou pa gen pwoblèm ak legliz on kontrè se menm bagay yo, se lespri ou ka rele l fason ou vle. Tankou nou konnen andan Vodou gen yon sèl lespri, Gran Mèt la, epi gen divès kalite don ki manifeste sou divès kalite enèji ki viv divès kalite koulè ou wè nan Vodou a. Ou wè wouj, ou wè nwa, ou wè blan, ou wè tout sa. Se yo menm ki detèmine, komsi, men tout soti yon sèl kote. Ki se papa a ki bay tout kalite don, oswa moun ki pral kase fèy pou tèt fè mal, oswa moun ki pral kase fèy po moun ki pral akouche timoun. Nan tout domèn nou konnen Vodou a li menm se yon inivèsite ki ouvè, ki gen tout syès yo andan l, san nou pa bezwen define. Tankou pa egzanp, si nou pran vèvè, tout sa vèvè vle di, tout vèvè youn apre lòt n ap swiv ke, n ap wè nou jwenn tout eksplikasyon avè menm moun yo rele sivilizasyon ki te la. Ki gentan pyebwa andan Vodou, menm moun nou genyen kounye a. Epi bon mwen leve avèk yon pè mwen fè pi fò tan m nan legliz Katolik tou. Welele: M kwè mwen gen dizan nan vi m, kounye mwen gen trant dezan, mwen kwè mwen gen dizan nan vi m depi m pa viv kay Welele: Well, Welele came from Benen, a place in Jacmel. I spent most of my life in seminaries; I was supposed to become a Catholic priest. Ben: Oh, okay. Welele: I was supposed to become a Catholic priest, but after all of the history we know I did not have a problem with the church, on the contrary, they are the same thing, and it is the spirit that you can call what you want. For example, we know in Vodou there is one spirit, the Gran Mèt 2, and there are different types of gifts that are reflected by varying energies and the diverse colors that are seen in Vodou. You see red, black, white, you see all of these colors. They decide and are all from the same place, whether it s the father who shares different things or people who pick leaves for headaches or for people who are going into labor. In every domain we know Vodou, it is a university that is open that has all the knowledge in it, without needing to be defined. For example, if we look at the vèvè and everything they mean, one after the other, we will see that we find all the explanations from the same people they called civilizilization who were here. Who had roots within Vodou and are still the very same people now. Well I was raised with a priest and I spent most of my life in the Catholic Church. Welele: I think I spent ten years of my life, now I am 32, I spent ten years of my life living with a priest or nun! 2 Gran Mèt literally means the Great Master and is used by Christians and Vodouists to refer to God. 4

5 mè o kay pè. Ben: Wow! Welele: Sa vle di ou, mwen fè tout vi m sa, kay pè. Ben: E ou p at rete avèk paran ou yo? Welele: Pa vrèman, se pa paske paran m p at genyen mwayen pou yo leve m. Epok lè legliz Katolik antre nan peyi a, moun yo tè vrèman respekte yon pè, yon pè yon veritab, yon pèsonaj, sa yo rele yon notab, yon saj. Se ke si li te bezwen yon timoun nan fanmi; kèlkeswa moun ki nan legliz nan, li jis di oke mwen bezwen pitit sa a. Alò mwen menm, manman papa te leve legliz la, se pè a ki te reveye yo tou, sa ki fè mwen tou fèt andan legliz la. Mwen fèt andan legliz, nan fè entèvyou pou sa, mwen te sipoze obeyi pou sa. Mwen te sipoze vin pè. Ben: Wi. Welele: Epi mwen vin kite sa, nou kwaze epi nou rejwenn nou nan menm bagay yo. Kote nou jwenn konprann nou kapab di nou se yon prensip nostik. Welele: Paske, nostik nan tout relijyon. Ben: Oke, se konesans. Welele: Se konesans, pwisans wap jwenn nostik nan Vodou, w ap jwenn nostik mason lòj, w ap jwenn nostik nan Katolik, w ap jwenn nostik nan, nan tout sek yo. Ben: Wow! Welele: This means I spent that much of my life in the houses of priests. Ben: Did you live with your parents? Welele: Not really, this isn t because my parents didn t have the means to raise me. During the time when the Catholic Church entered the country, people truly respected priests. A priest, a genuine person, a person of importance; what they call remarkable, a wise and sensible person. If he needed a child from one of the families, whether or not in the church, he would just say, Okay, I need this child. Well, my mother and father were raised in the church and it was a priest that raised them, this is why I was born in church. I was born in the church and we interviewed for that. I was supposed to do that. I was supposed to become a priest. Ben: Yes. Welele: I abandoned that, encountered it again and found that it was the same. Where we found understanding we could say it was a Gnostic principle. Welele: Because Gnosticism is in every religion. Ben: Okay, this is knowledge. Welele: This is knowledge, knowing you will find Gnosticism in Vodou, Masonic Lodges, Catholicism; you will find it all religions. 5

6 Ben: Mè wi, mè wi. Mwen kwè sa tou. Welele: Nòmal, paske nou se konesans jon fo di, a po sodi. Alò, se non fanmi m se Ramon, se Nwel, Ramon Nwel. Men anvan, non apre Ramon Nwel manman papa m te ban mwen non fanmi an. Mwen pa gen pwoblèm avè yo, men m vin chwazi yon lòt non, ke yo rele non vanyan andan Vodou. Ben: Oke se non vanyan ou. Welele: Mwen pa fòse manyen yon non vanyan paske sa se pou moun inisye. Welele: Men se lè m aprann mwen vin konprann poutèt kisa mwen te vin chwazi non Welele. Si ou gade ou di We-le-le sa vle di, li sonnen twa fwa. We-le-le sa vle di mwen te kapab papa, petit, lespri, se pa sa mwen ye se jis yon non ki vin abite. Welele: Sa se son, epi anpil moun tou, lè yo di Welele nan a sosyete sa se tankou yon vye bagay. Men si ou al nan teyolojik, lè mo Kretyèn se yon vye bagay. Kretyèn se tankou ou joure manman ou. Menm jan nan sosyete yo di Welele, yo vin pran mo Kretyèn pou sèvi l kòm yon moun k ap pi bon sèvi Bondye. Welele: Enbyen poukisa mwen pa sèvi ak Welele tou paske yo t ap pale l mal. Se yon Ben: Of course, I believe that too. Welele: This is normal because we are knowledge jan fo di, a po sodi. Well, my family named me Ramon, my last name is Nwel, Ramon Nwel. But before, no after Ramon Nwel, my mother and father gave me the family name, I did not have a problem with them, but I chose another name; this is called a vanyan name 3 in Vodou. Ben: Okay this is your vanyan name. Welele: I don t impose the vanyan name because it is for people who are initiated. Welele: But when I learned, I came to understand why I chose the name Welele. If you said We-le-le this means it resonates three times. We-le-le this means I could have said the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit but this is not what I am. It is just a name that I have come to have. Welele: That is the sound and a lot of people, when they say Welele in society it is a bad thing. But if you research theology you will see the word Christian was a bad thing. Christian meant you disrespected your mother. Just as in society they say Welele, they took the word Christian and used it to describe a person that is serving God well. Welele: Well, why can t I use Welele also because they were talking bad about it. It is a 3 The non vanyan is sometimes described as a secret ritual name that one receives within a Vodou society. In the case of Welele Noubout, he uses his non vanyan as his public name. A parallel of this can be found in Islamic naming traditions. 6

7 moun ki fè sa k ki dwòl, sa k ki pi mal. Mwen plis pran Welele pou m sèvi ave l, ke m ka pote sa k ki bon. Welele: Se ki sa ou pral fè, paske ni bon ni mal se ki sa l ye? Ni bon ni mal se tou de ki egziste, yo sipoze viv ansanm. Welele: Mwen gen dwa fè ou byen, menm se yon mal. Pandan mal byen an, ki mal pou ou a, byen pou mwen. Mwen gen dwa fè yon byen, se yon mal li ye pou ou, epi byen mal, sa mal pou yon ekip lòt. Ben: Oke, se sa. Ou sot di nou, ou insiye o ou poko inisye? Nan kontèks kanzo obyen deka a obyen eske se yon posibilite lavni ou? Si se yon posibilite ki wout ou bezwen fè pou rive, deside fè chwa sa a? Welele: Andan Vodou gen plizyè fason moun insiye. Welele: Gen moun fòk li vin lave tèt, gen moun fòk li vin kouche, fè kant jou yo mande andan djèvo o andan badji pou l fè anvan pou l soti. Men gen de moun ki se, depi nan vant manman yo, sa rele de chwazi. Ben: Wi, wi se sa wi. person who does bad things. I mostly chose Welele to use it to do and bring good. Welele: It is what you are going to do, because it s neither good nor bad? Neither good nor bad exists exclusively, they are supposed to coexist together. Welele: I may do something good, but it is actually bad. While the bad is good, what is bad for you is good for me. I may do something good, but it is bad for you, and the good is bad, that is bad for another group. You said you you are an initiate or you are not initiated yet? In the kanzo or deka context? Or is it a possibility in your life? If it is a possibility, what route do you need to take to get there, to decide to make this decision? Welele: Within Vodou there are many ways people are initiated. Welele: There are people who must come wash their heads. There are people who must lie down and spend a number of days inside the djèvo or badji 4 before they can leave. But there are some people who have been chosen since they were in their mother s womb, they are called the chosen. Ben: Yes, yes that s it. 4 The djèvo is the initiation chamber that only initiates may enter. The badji is synonymous with djèvo but also seems to have a broader connotation of the Vodou temple, too. 7

8 Welele: Mwen t ap pral di sa a. Menm lè ou se de chwazi depi nan vant, men gen dè prensip andan rituèl fò aksepte, fò ou konfèy yo. Pa egzanp, menm lè ou se yon insiye depi nan vant, sa a yo rele lave tèt, klase tèt. Lave tèt se tankou sa a yo fè nan batèm, klase tèt se tankou ki jan m ta di klase? Lave tèt se di wi mwen aksepte pou yo vin jwenn mwen epi klase tèt se youn apre lòt kòm yo vini. Kouman m ka eksplike sa, se tankou ou gen yon wout ki fèt pou dis machine. Welele: Epi vin genyen san machine ki sipoze pase sou wout sa a. Pou pa gen blokis, kisa ou fè kounye a? Se swa ou mete on limyè ou fede siyalizyon oubyen mete yon lapolis pou di avanse, ret kanpe pou mete yon, pou fè yon va e byen, e sa ki klase tèt. Mwen t ap plis pitou di mwen se yon ministre nan nostik, nan nostik ke antwoj, men ki se menm bagay. Lè ou gade tout lòt relijon ki vini, lè ou gade andan Vodou ou wè tout soti la. Welele: Tout soti la men e pa kont ke, e gen anpil travay ki fèt onè men pa on insiye tankou on pè Vodou ki gen bagay pou l fè. Welele: Epi ou p ap souvan jwenn parey Vodou oubyen on insiye ki pral di ou se on insiye sou on pre Vodou. Li pa rete yon sekrè li pitou rete konsa ak jès. Welele: I was going to say that. Even though you have been chosen since you were in your mother s womb, there are principles within the rituals that you have to accept, you must believe. For example, when you are an initiate since the womb, this is what they call lave tèt, klase tèt. Lave tèt means they had a baptism, klase tèt means how do I say it? Klase? Lave tèt is saying Yes, I accept them coming, and klase tèt is one after the other as they come. How can I explain this? It is like having a road that was made for ten cars. Welele: And then there are a hundred cars that are trying to pass on the road. How do you prevent blockages? What would you do? You either put a light or a police man to help direct the cars, to tell them when to go, when to stop. This is for their benefit, this is what you call klase tèt. I would prefer to say I am a minister of Gnosticism, in the Gnostic ke antwoj, but this is the same thing. When you look at where all the other religions came from, when you look inside Vodou, you see that they all came from it. Welele: Every one of them came from it. There is a lot of work that was done honorably although I am not an initiate, like a priest in Vodou who has things he must do. Welele: And you will not often find someone who practices Vodou or an initiate of Vodou who is open about it. It doesn t stay a secret, they just prefer to keep it behind closed doors. 8

9 Welele: Li pi saj kòm si ke, si l gen pwoblèm nou la. Sak fè ou wè andan Vodou moun yo chante plis pou yo pale a moun. Welele: Pa egzanp, neg la gen dwa di ou nan Vodou, gen an gwo chante Vodou mwen renmen anpil ki di. Nou p ap fache avèk pechè latè. Pechè latè se, Voduizan rele sa, se moun vivan. Paske gen on jou ya bezwen ou. (chante) M p ap fache avèk pechè latè, paske gen jou y a bezwen ou. Simityè lakwa gen yon tan, y a bay yo bo dèyè nou. Sa vle di, nou pa gen pou nou fache avèk pesòn moun paske si moun sa gen bezwen nou, nou oblije al bal sèvis. Ou pa bezwen konnen si l se Katolik, si l Pwotestan, oubyen si l masisi o madivin sa pa regade nou, li gen vi imen Bondye andan l. Nou gen po fè l konekte avel pou l rive kote li dwe rive ale. Sa li fè ak kò l se bagay ki gade l. Ben: Oke, se sa. Man: Pa egazanp Ben: On ti moman. (Nou te rete pou on ti moman paske van an t ap vante.) Mwen menm se on fanatic Boukman eksperyans depi ane kantvindis. Natirèlman m ap swiv jaz tankou Jah Nesta, e mwen te etidye fenomèn Rasta nan peyi Jamayik depi ventan nan lavi mwen. Mwen ta renmen konnen ki jan Vodou avèk Rasta kontre an Ayiti. Paske se an Miami tou paske male nan anpil peristil mwen wè anpil drèd. Anpil Rasta men ki gen on baz Welele: It is more considerate that way; if there s a problem, we are here. This is why you see people singing a lot to talk to people within Vodou. Welele: For example, a man may tell you in Vodou, there is a well-known Vodou song I like a lot. We will not be upset with the sinners of the earth. Sinners of the earth, Vodouists call them living people. Because there will be a day they will need you. (Sings) I will not be upset with the sinners of the Earth because there will be a day when they need you. The cross of the cemetery is coming, and they will make them kiss our behinds. This means, we aren t upset with anyone because if that person need us we have to help them. You don t need to know or care if they are Catholics, Protestant, gay or lesbian, this does not concern you. They have a human life from God inside of them. We have to make them connect so they are able to reach where they are supposed to reach. What they do with their body concerns only them. Man: For example Ben: A moment please. (We took a little break because it was very windy.) I have been a fan of the Boukman Experience since Naturally, I have been following bands like Jah Nesta and I have studied the phenomenon of Rasta in Jamaica since I was 20. I would like to know how Vodou and Rasta meet in Haiti. Because in Miami, in every peristil, I see a lot of dreads. A lot of Rastas have a solid base in Vodou. 9

10 solid nan Vodou. Welele: Oubyen di l wi. Ou di Rasta, drèd. Welele: Men nan langage pa Vodou yo rele sa zing. Ben: Zing! Oke mwen te tande mo sa a deja. Welele: La fanmi Zinga, se de moun tankou konsa (li montre dread li), ki fè dread net. Men se pa yo ki fè l, yo fèt konsa. Ben: Oke, se sa. Welele: Sa vle di anvan menm Rasta, Calacia e ou gen Bob Marley. Si ou al nan zòn Sen Rafayèl, mwen pa konnen pou kounye a moun sa yo te viv Degwot, e yo pa desann nan vil. Ben: Se sa. Welele: Simbi. Welele: Sa vle di, lè yo di Simbi Anvezo ki nan dlo se Simbi Konga. Zinga yo sa yo rele zing dread yo, yo menm viv an gwòt, jis ka pre sa nan zon Sen Rafael la, nan zon Donon w ap jwenn Dezil ki te egziste toujou. Ben: A bon li viv nan gwòt. Welele: Li viv nan gwòt. Swa yo gen ki viv nan gwòt oubyen genyen ki desann nan anba la vil. Genyen sa a yo ki pa nan sivilizasyon modèn. Nan sense e yo moute machin, yo Welele: You said it well. You say Rasta, dread. Welele: In the Vodou language, we call it zing. Ben: Zing! Okay, I ve heard this word before. Welele: The family of Zinga is composed of people like this (he shows his dreads), who have dreads. But they are not the ones who did it, they were born with it. Ben: Okay, that s it. Welele: This means before even Rasta, Calacia, you had Bob Marley. If you go to the area of Saint Rafael, I don t know now if those people live in caves, and they didn t go down to the city. Ben: That s it. Welele: Simbi. Welele: This means, when they say Simbi Andezo who is in water it s Simbi Konga. The Zinga, the ones who call zing dreads, they live in caves, they still live in the area of Saint Rafael, in the neighborhood Donon you will find Dezil that still exists. Ben: Oh okay, they live in caves. Welele: They live in caves. They may live in caves or there are some who move to the city. There are some who are not a part of modern civilization. In a sense they ride cars, they use 10

11 pale nan miko. Yo pa gen pwoblèm avèk sivilizasyon men yo genyen pwop sivilizasyon pa a yo ki se antik kote soti. Men sou a l prann nan zon kote nan sid, kote mwen menm soti, egzakteman yo prèske pa rete paske w ap jwenn granmoun ki ka sonje l. Yo rele moun sa yo mèt Ginen, fanm yo rele yo metrès Ginen. Mèt Ginen. Welele: Mèt Ginen. Ben: Mèt Ginen, moun ki gen dread oubyen zing. Welele: Zing se nan zon kote m ap di ou nan Sen Rafayèl, nan nò. Men nan Sid Deso yo rele moun sa yo metrès, mèt Ginen. Ki jan yo di moun sa yo se de moun ki rete nan dèyè raje poutèt yo rete nan Degwot tou. Welele: Yon nan gwo pwoblèm ki genyen isit se Vodou se pa telman yon mwen pa ka menm di se relijyon. Konesans se pa nan liv, li chita vrèman. Welele: Invisite Vodou se pa nan liv li ye. Tankou lè ou pran invisite Katolik yo, nan teyoloji, on nèg vin mason, on nèg vin pè, on nèg vin pastè, w al fè yon etid Welele: Nan liv, men nan Vodou etid la pa nan liv son koneksyon ou jwenn nan invèsite revelasyon, ki nan la Bib; tou nan Revelasyon. Pierre te fè larevelasyon, Jezi te microphones. They do not have a problem with civilization but they have their own civilization, which is the ancient place I am from. But if you go to the neighborhood in the South, where I am from, they are almost gone but you might find old people who still remember it. They call these people the masters of Ginen, the women are called the mistresses of Ginen. Ben: Okay, masters of Ginen. Welele: Master of Ginen. Ben: The masters of Ginen, people with dreads or zing. Welele: Zing is in the area I am telling you about, in Saint Rafael, in the North. But in the South, Deso they call those people mistresses and masters of Gine. The way they can tell these people apart is the fact that they live behind a big field and in Degwot. Welele: One of the biggest problems we have here is Vodou is not really I can t even say it s a religion. Knowledge is not in books, it is real. Welele: Vodou university is not in books. For instance when you are in classes at a Catholic university, in theology, and later become a mason, a priest, or pastor, they are learning Welele: In books, but in Vodou the studying is not in books, it is a connection you find in the university of revelations, which is also in the Bible; the book of 11

12 wè tèl bagay, se nan menm ki egziste toujou. Jezi te leve la mò, wap jwenn sa nan Vodou a, y ap leve mò. Ben: Wi wi, menm se ak travaj lapawòl, se mo, se oral. Welele: Wi, wi a lò Rasta li vin pa gen pwoblèm paske ki sa yo vin di Ras-ta. Se Ras de Zetwal, la fanmi Zetwal, la Zetwal de David. Nan etwal gen lavi. Nou menm si nou gade andan ou jwenn deyè etwal tou ki pa deranje anyen. Etwal vin la, lè wa te mare pou l te jwenn Jezi. Ki sa li swiv? Se lè zetwal. Lè twa mag, ansan ak mi. Se te zetwal la nou pa gen pwoblèm ak sa Rasta epi Zinga, Zinge se non sa yo nou vin genyen isit a. Epi kòm ou te pale Boukman se petit Boukman ki te fè Zing eksperyans an kontre di Boukman eksperyans li fè Zing eksperyans. Ti Paul petit Lò Lò. Ben: Oke, Zing eksperyans! Welele: Zing eksperyans! Eksperyans dread. Boukman kite liv la nan men li. Ben: Boukman Dutty. Welele: Boukman Dutty, Boukman eksperyans, lòt prive eksperyans, epi Zing eksperyans, eksperyans, djaz la. Ben: Oke, djaz la bon? Welele: E bon Ben: Y ap fè efò. Revelations. Peter had a revelation, Jesus saw such things and this is what still exists. Jesus raised the dead, you will find this in Vodou; they raise the dead. Ben: Yes, even with the work of words, it is words, it is oral. Welele: Yes, well Rasta don t have problems because those came to say Ras-ta. They are from a race of stars, Zetwal family, the star of David. In stars there is life. If we look inside we find stars that don t damage anything. The star appeared when the King wanted to find Jesus. What did he follow? He followed the star. When the three wise men were coming to find Jesus, bringing gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, they too followed that star. If it is the star, we do not have a problem with that, Rasta or Zinga. Zinga is a name that they have been given here. Since you talked about Boukman, it is his child that created the Zing Experience instead of Boukman Experience. He created the Zing Experience, Little Pauk the child of Lò Lò 5. Ben: Okay, Zing Experience! Welele: Zing Experience! Dreads experience. Boukman left the book with him. Ben: Boukman Dutty. Welele: Boukman Dutty, Boukman Experience, other private experiences, and the Zing Experience, Experience, the Band. Ben: Okay, is the band good? Welele: Well Ben: They are doing their best. 5 Lò Lò is a member of Boukman Eksperyans. 12

13 Welele: Y ap fè efò kòm gen kèk jou mwen pa tande yo mwen pa konn kisa yo fè. Ou konnen depi li te marye, ou gen madam, pitit. Tankou Vodou di a Kreyòl mande chanjman. Ben: Kreyòl mande chanjman. Kisa sa vle di? Welele: Kreyòl mande chanjman, se e poukisa yon antite tankou Vodou ki fè yon gwo batay pou retire chenn nan pye, retire chenn nan men. Mwen di chenn nan men paske chenn nan, nan tèt ou. Se pi gwo batay sa pou nou fè zanset nou yo te fè gwo batay pou retire chenn nan e sa ki vin paret konfizyon, ke fè yo di Ayisien pa ka gen tèt ansanm. Moun yo pa konprann se yon baz espirityèl ki poko chita vrèman. Ki jan mwen ka esplike sa? Ki jan nou ka di lespri pou moun konprann? Kote nan pale gen demare radyo ak televizyon k ap pase a la fwa. Welele: Pou m kapte on radyo, on televizyon sa, fò m genyen yon reseptè radyo oubyen reseptè televizyon. Mete l la mwen kapte l, kounye a la si gen demilye on kap pase sou frekan radyo sa m vle kapte. Kisa pou fè pou ka kapte l byen, kounye a mwen mete yon antèn ki pi moute pou kapte l. Se pwoblèm ki vin koz ou wè Ayisien ak Ayisien frappe yon ak lòt paske yo pa konprann se fwotman de enèji sa ki fè m di ou lè ou gen yon wout ki fèt pou dis machin ou gen san machin pou li k ap pase sou li... ki sa k pase, blokis. Welele: Ou debloke sa kounye a sa pou fè? Welele: They are doing their best but it has been a while since I heard them, I don t know what they are doing now. When you are married, have a wife and children things change. As Vodou says, Kreyòl mande chanjman. Ben: Kreyòl mande chanjman. What does that mean? Welele: Kreyol requires change is why something such as Vodou had a big battle to free the chains from our hands and feet. I said the chains on our hands because the chain, it is in your mind. This is the biggest battle for us, our ancestors battled to remove the chains from our minds. This is what causes confusion and why it is said that Haitians cannot work together. People don t understand that this is a spiritual base that hasn t happen yet. How do I explain this? How do we say spirit so people understand? Where the talking has stopped, the radio and the television are on all the time. Welele: For me to receive the signals of radio and television, I must have a radio receptor or television receptor. Put them there and I capture them, now there are two million signals on the same frequency of the people I want to receive. What can I do to really receive them? Now I put up the highest antenna to receive them. This issue causes Haitians to disagree with each other because they don t understand the friction of an energy like that of a road for 10 cars with 100 cars using it, what happens, a traffic jam. Welele: You unblock this and now what do 13

14 Swa ou mete on polis oubyen on mete on siyal ke fè yo fè adwat, agoch, vini. Kounye a ou wè tout moun ap batay ak lòt yo pa konprann, ou ka poze tèt ou kesyon. Kouman fè on pep pa konprann, yo se premye pep lwa, yo sou fatra, yo sou lòt bagay. Se menm sa m ap di ou an, chenn nan soti nan men vizyèl mwen, soti nan pye vizyèl vin nan tèt mwen. E nou menm nou gen gwo travay sa pou nou fè vrèman, men ki n ap fè l paske gen on epok nou pa t menm vle bat Vodou. Gen yon epok nou pa t ka vin la cheche vin konn kisa Vodou a ye. Se lè ou wè travay la ap fèt, li gen on tan pou chak bagay. Welele: Sa ke kisa mwen menm preche se mwen jwenn moun ki vrèman konnen kouman pou yo klase sa, pou nou rive klase se yo vre pou nou pa gen tout pwoblèm sa yo nou gen na sosyete. Lè ou gade Vodou an jeneral si moun yo te gen on prensip, sou gade li ki jan yo salye lwa yo, youn apre lòt. Yon prensip, yo gen yon prensip nan sosyete. Ben: A wi. Welele: Voduizan konnen li pa kanpe machin li nenpòt ki jan. Gen prensip nan Vodou ki di l, li pa ka kanpe l nepòt ki jan nepòt kote pa t ap gen blokis nan lari a. Se ke tout bagay yo la, e si ou pran tout pwovèb Ayisyen ki soti andan Vodou a ankò, se tout ki richès ke nou genyen pou nou rekonstwi yon lòt nasyon, pou nou konnen plas nou. Kòm pou leve kanpe sa yo rele konsyans nan etap sikanalis, sikanalis si ou poko la sa vle di ou poko la di tou. you do? You can have an officer or a sign that directs the cars right, left, straight. Now you see everyone arguing with others who they don t understand, you can ask yourself why. They were the spirit s first people, they re around trash and they are around other things. This is what I m telling you, the chains are no longer on their hands but in their minds. We have a lot of work to do but I truly believe we will do it because there was a time when we did not want Vodou. There was a time where you could not come here to learn about Vodou. It is when you see the work being done, you realize that there is a time for everything. Welele: This is what I preach, if I find someone who truly knows how to classify this, to reach this level, we cannot have all the problems we have in our society. When you look at Vodou in general, to see if they have principles, you look at how they greet the spirits, one after the other. A principle, they have a principle in the society. Ben: Oh yes. Welele: Vodouists know they can t walk any way they want. There are principles in Vodou that say a Vodouist cannot stop anywhere where they would be blocking the road. It is like everything here, if you take all the Haitian proverbs that came from Vodou, they are the wealth we have to reconstruct another nation, so we know our place. Well, to make mention of what they call consciousness in the steps of psychoanalysis; psycoanalysis means if you are not here yet, you are not here at all. 14

15 Welele: Fòk ou konnen, paske konsyans se konsyans de bagay. Pou konsyans se ke de cho yo ye men pou jwenn bagay kan menm, ou poko rive la. Mwen te kwè nan rive la on jou, paske menm pawòl sa k ap pale kounye a p at janm konn pale. Ben: Oke, e lè wap pale di pa egzanp Rasta Jamayiken, sa ki fè mwen kirye se konnen si ou ta jwenn tankou an kominote Rasta isit, an Ayiti? Welele: Ki solidè? Ben: Pa sèlman solidè, men ki reklame Haylè Selasi... Welele: Kòm? Ben: Kòm sovè, kòm wa, kòm reprezantasyon kwayans Rasta? On seri de moun ki swiv filozofi vejetaryen moun, ki pa menm manje sèl, moun ki pa bwè alkòl tankou on Rasta fran. Welele: Fran. Ben: Eske sa egziste isit, tankou li egziste an Afrik di Sid? Welele: Wi Ben: Mwen te konnen anpil Rasta nan Afrik di Sid... Welele: Wi, sa egziste isit. W ap jwenn menm òganizasyon Rasta isit ki pa anpil men, mwen te jis vle fè diferans pou ou avèk Rasta ki soti Jamayik de Haili Selassie I. Ben: Wi, se sa a. Welele: You must know, because consciousness is consciousness of things. To be conscious they have to be warm-hearted but to find things anyways, you did not get there yet. I believed in this dream because the same saying that is being talked about has never used to be talked about before. Ben: Okay, when you are talking about, for example, Jamaican Rastas, I am curious to learn if there are places in Haiti where you will find Rasta communities? Welele: That are unified? Ben: Not just solidified, but also claims Haili Selassie Welele: As? Ben: As savior, as a king, as a representation of Rasta heritage? There are certain people who are vegetarian, there are some who don t eat salt, and don t drink alcohol, they are pure Rastas. Welele: Pure. Ben: Does this exist here like it exists in the South Africa? Welele: Yes Ben: I knew a lot of Rastas in South Africa... Welele: Yes, that happens here. You find Rasta organizations that are not very much, but I just wanted to show you the difference from Rastas from Jamaica who follow Highly Calacia. Ben: Yes, that s it. 15

16 Welele: Avèk si yon moun wè drèd sa nou menm nou rele Zing, ki gen koneksyon dirèkt avèk Simbi Andezo. Ben: Se sa. Welele: Men gen kote mwen ale, tankou nan Basin Zim, avèk tout drèd mwen epi lè m leve nan tout basin an moun yo di Mwen konn wè moun tankou mesye sa sot nan dlo a. Vrèman gen kèk nèg (?) konsa anba dlo vre, ki soti anba dlo vrèman. Genyen menm Basin Zing se lakay yo, se Dè Zing, drèd kòmsi dèyè. Si nou al nan Bib la, kòman se Samson. Ben: Se sa tou, se sa, sa egziste tou nan kilti sa yo. Welele: Ou jwenn gen anpil Rasta men an isit, ki kwè nan Haile Salassie I. Mwen menm mwen konprann yo nan yon sans paske Ewòp ki pote Jezi Kri blan an, nou menm nou konnen li antre lojik imen, nan moun, moun pa ni nwa ni blan on moun. Paske si ou pike m, ou pike m se san. Ben: Se sa, wi se sa. Welele: Nou genyen yon pwen da rive ki komè li gen yon pwen fini ki koman. Nou soti andan vant manman nou menm jan nap tounen nan te nèg nou. Se ke nou genyen yon obligasyon pou nou met tèt nou ansanm pou nou fè tel bagay ansanm. Kisa mwen vin konprann li vin tande yo, si Ewòpeyen vin pote Jezi Kri blan la epi se black nou ye menm epi nou gen Jezi Kri black nou reprezante pa Highly Calace. Ben: Wi se sa, se sa. Welele: Lè ou swiv, kisa tout bagay Jezi t ap Welele: And if someone see dreads, what we call Zing, that have a direct connection with Simbi Andenzo. Ben: That s it. Welele: There are places I went, like Basin Zin, with my dreads and when I emerged from the water people said I see people like him, coming from the water. Really there are people like that under the water. They come from under the water. There is even Basin Zin it is their home, it s Dè Zing, dreads are starting to be behind. If we go to the Bible, this would be Samson. Ben: That too, this exists also in those cultures. Welele: You find, there are a lot of Rastas here who believe in Haile Salassie I. I understand them in the sense that Europeans brought a white Jesus Christ; we know it through human logic about people, a person is not white or black they are just a person. If you poke a person you will see blood. Ben: Yes, yes. Welele: We have songs with a purpose and some of these songs can be comedic. We came from our mother s womb. The same way we came from the dirt we will return back to the dirt. It is like we have an obligation to work together, to do things together. I came to understand that people hear them. If the Europeans brought a white Jesus Christ and we are black then we must have a black Jesus Christ which is represented by Haile Selassie. Ben: Yes, that s it. Welele: When you follow this, what was 16

17 di. Jezi nan mitan tout moun, swiv ke mwen te ka genyen yon ti pwoblèm ki pa yon ti pwoblèm men pou tèt se Haile Selassie yo bay sèlman pou reprezante Jezi paske yo menm tou se Jezi andan Jezi, menm jan nan Vodou nou di nou se Bondye andan Bondye. Si nou se pitit Bondye, nou se Bondye. Kounye a se ki jan mwen pral fè mwen viv Bondye sa a, ki kreye pye bwa sa a, ki kreye tout sa a nou wè bèl ki pwòp, kisa ou pral fè kounye a paske ou pa kab kreye pye bwa a, kreye sa. Men ki jan ou pral fè pou viv ou pou montre s ak andan an. Swa pou nan amoni ak pye bwa a pou pa koupe l, swa pou nan amoni avèk rivyè paske li gen ti pwason, li gen tout sa ki egziste pou yo viv tou. Pa egzanp mwen konprann, nèg yo pa manje vyann, bèt yo nou pa gen pouwva sou yo konsa vrèman, yo soti yo fèt menm jan avèk nou y ap mouri menm jan avèk nou. Si nou gade byen yo soti andan pousyè epi y ap tounen andan pousyè si mwen pousyè. Gen lè nan tanp nou rive a nou gade, epi tou nou menm ak animal la. Nou se animal nan on lòt sans. Ben: Wi, se yon lide ki baze nan bon jan refleksyon. Welele: Refleksyon. Ben: E rasyonalite, e pou koze Jacmel, ou di nou ou fèt Jacmel. Nou menm nan achiv Vodou nou ta renmen vizite vil sa a. Pale nou de Vodou Jacmel, eske ou konnen l e ki jan ou ta ka esplike nou menm? Welele: Vodou Jacmel sa ou ka konprann men ki difèran. Mwen t ap pito di nan lesid e nan lenò. Welele: Se nètman difèran, premiye man se Jesus saying? Jesus is in everyone. I found that I may have a small problem that s not a small problem because only Haile Selassie represents Jesus because they too are Jesus within Jesus. In Vodou we say there is a God within God. If we are God s children, we are God. Now it s up to me to choose how I live this Godliness. God created the trees, he created every beautiful thing that we see; what will you do now? Because you can t cut the tree, God created it. How are you going to live your life to show what s inside? Either you are in harmony with the trees so you don t cut them, or live in harmony with the river because it has fish and other livings thing that were meant to live. For example, I understand there are some men who don t eat meat. We don t truly have power over the animals, they came and were made the same way we were and they will die like we die. If you really look, they came from dirt and they will return to the dirt as I do. We will look and see that we are the same as animals. We are animals in another sense. Ben: Yes, this idea is based on thorough reflection. Welele: Reflection. Ben: And rationality, and for things about Jacmel, you said you were born in Jacmel. We, from the Vodou Archive, would like to visit thas city. Tell us about Vodou in Jacmel, do you know about it and how can you explain it to us? Welele: There is Vodou in Jacmel that you can understand but it is different. I prefer to talk about South Elando, in the city. Welele: They are completely different, first 17

18 pa menm fason moun yo danse, se pa menm fason yo salye lwa yo. Anpil lwa se pa menm, yo genyen isit ou jwenn Bade menm nan Lisid ou p ap jwenn Bade, w ap jwenn Ogou, w ap jwenn Agwe ou p ap jwenn Manbo Inan nan sidès, nan lisid menm. Welele: Ou p ap jwenn, gen le bagay ki kapab pote gen bagya ki tre tre enteresan. Ou gen dwa rive isit ou jwenn Ogou Wouj enpitou lòt kote ou ka rive ou jwenn li woz. Ben: Ogou Woz, a bon. Welele: Men sa a depann sa yo rele chan Manyetis. Welele: Si chan manyetis sa mande anpil enèji li nòmal li wouj, menm si gen lòt kote li kalm, gen kote w ale ou jwenn Ogou Bade tirè manchet, li batay, li tire enpe. Gen lòt kote li parèt li salye tout moun li bo tout moun li kontan. Ben: Oke, oke li gen yon lòt jan. Welele: Men sa depann de chan manyetis ki la. Kiyes pitit ki la ki gen batay pou l al sove pitit li paske li sou batay? Se de prensip difèran, se menm jan w ap jwenn seri di mò, gen seri di moun yo fè dans le mò, yo pa fè Gede dans le nò, yo fè seremoni yanm. Ou jwenn Gede nan Lwès nan Sid lwes nan zòn sa yo. Epi tout rit yo pa menm jan an ou ka swiv sa a w al nan Sidel ou ka jwenn ou mwen senk ak sis tanbou. E pa bo isit ou jwenn twa tanbou, nan Soukri ou jwenn de tanbou nan lòt zòn yo jwenn nan tout. Yo gen they don t dance the same way, and they don t greet the spirits the same way. Many of the spirits are not the same. You may find Badè there, but in the South you will not find Badè. You will find Ogou and Agwe, but you will not find Manbo Inan in the south-east, in the south at all. Welele: [There are some things] you won t find, there are things you will find and there are some things that are really interesting. You may arrive here and find Ogou Wouj (red) and find another place where he is pink. Ben: Ogou Woz (pink), okay. Welele: But that depends on what they call the magnetic field. Welele: If the magnetic field requires a lot of energy it s normally red, but there are other places where it is calm. There are places where Ogou Badè will swing his machete and there are other places where he arrives and greets everyone with kisses and he is happy. Ben: Okay, he has another aspect to him. Welele: But this depends on the magnetic field that is here. Whose child is here, who has to battle to save their children because he wants to fight? These are two different principles, the same way you find certain words, there are certain words said to those who are performing a dance for the dead, they do not do Gede s dance in the north, the dance of the of the dead, they have a yanm ceremony. You find Gede in the West, and Southwest of these neighborhoods. Every rite is the same, you can practice this and go to 18

19 plizye rit yo jwenn, ou pa jwenn Yanvalou la, ou pa jwenn Ibo la, ou pa jwenn Petwo la. Ben: Se vre, isit se Dahomen? Welele: Se Dahomen, Nago, Rada. Men lè ou di Rada se kòd ki mache avèk tout tanbou. Ben: Se sa. Welele: A lò Jacmel w ap jwenn anpil koulè epi sa yo ka touve ou p ap jwenn vrèman, li pa fasil pou jwenn sak sakre, bagay vin plis opera. Ben: A bon, sak fè sa a? Welele: Sa k fè sa a? En, se menm jan ou te ka poze m kesyon poutèt kisa poutèt pi fo chante yo se dèyè pwen. Se kòmsi moun yo gen yon kont y ap rann, se kòmsi yo gen yon pwoblèm a on moun, non. Men pa bliye valè tan yo fè pou yo rekonet sosyete sa a tankou sosyete Ayisien, pa bliye sa ki te fèt pou yo te elimine Vodou a. Si nou pran nan milnèfsanswasant, se rejete moun sa yo sere vye bagay, se sa ki vin koz yo pè ouve vant yo ba ou. Oke kisa sa a ou te bezwenn men m ba ou l, demen ou gen dwa wè moun deyò a ki vin la k ap vin sou moun. An ou bezwenn tel bagay, ou bezwenn foto m e mwen kanpe mwen poste li pran foto m. Li konnen nan kisa ou ye epi, son fason li ironik. the South and find they use six drums, over here you find three drums, in Soukri you find two drums and you find drummers in other neighborhoods. There are plenty of rhythms you find, you don t find Yanvalou, Ibo, and Petwo here. Ben: This is true, here is Dahomey? Welele: It s Dahomey, Nago, and Rada. But when you say Rada it is a rope that comes with all drums. Ben: It is. Welele: Well in Jacmel you will find a lot of color and you will find things that are rarely found. It is not easy to find sacred things, things become very operatic. Ben: Why is this? Welele: Why is this? It is the same way you could ask me questions. This is why most of the songs are seeking out the pwen. It s like people have a problem that they were discussing but this is not it. Don t forget the amount of time it took for them to recognize this society as a Haitian society; don t forget what was done to try to eliminate Vodou. If we look at 1960, there was the rejection movement, the people who hid things, this caused them to fear being open with others. Okay, [they say,] what do you want me to give to you, and then tomorrow you may see that person and they may come to you again pretending that they are meeting you for the first time. Oh you need this, you need a picture and I will stand and pose for a picture. He knows what I am involved in, it s in an ironic way. 19

20 Welele: A se sa a ou bezwenn, se menm jan sou gade on seremoni k ap fèt la, se pa tout seremoni yo kite ou fime gen yon kote ki rezève espesyalman pou moun ki insiye se priyè le ye pa gen kamera pa gen anyen la, yo fèmen tout pòt epi ou pa konn sak ka pase andan. Ben: Wi, se sa a. Welele: Se sakre. Ben: Wi mwen te wè sa a paske mwen te mache andan avèk kamera moun mande mwen soti. Welele: Ya. Ben: Ou te wè sa? Welele: Ya, se sa a. Epi ou p ap jwenn deyè lakou tankou ou jwenn nan Gonavies, ou jwenn Soukri, Badjo, Souvnans. Pa genyen de lakou fò ki gen deyè yo limen tankou twa lakou sa yo men gen lòt zon ki vrèman fò tankou lè yo pale de lankou Real. Ou jwenn gen de lakou an jeneral swa nan Jeremi o nan Belans. Ben: Oke, ki jan lakou sa vin plis baze nan dezyèm kote se fanmi ki al pi lwen ave l? Welele: Pa fòseman paske pa bliye Vodou se invèsèl. Sa ke si l, li nòmal pou gon yon fòs Dahomen oubyen Dereyal, se te wayote, oubyen Kongo se sa ki fè ou jwenn plizyè rit Kongo. Kongo yo jwe nan Soukri se pa menm Kongo sa a yo, yo jwe nan Potoprans ditou, se pa men Kongo sa yo jwe Okay de fon menm. Pa egzanp mwen pral di ou, nan Soukri yo fè (Pa pi di tan, m pa pi di tan pi) nan Potoprans yo fè (Pim pim pa, pim pa da pa da tim), sa se dezyèm Kongo, on twazyèm Kongo ou jwenn Welele: Oh this is what you want, this is how you see a ceremony being conducted. Not every ceremony will allow you to film. There are some places that are especially cautious for the initiates and they are private so cameras are not allowed, they close all the doors, and you don t know what is going on. Ben: Yes that s true. Welele: This is a secret. Ben: Yes, I saw that because I went inside with the camera and people asked me to leave. Welele: Yes. Ben: Did you see this? Welele: Yes, that s it. And you will not find any communities like those of Gonaïves, Soukri, Badjo and Souvnans. There are no other communities as knowledgeable as these communities but there are other communities that are truly talented, like the community of Dereyal. You find there are communities in general in Jeremi or Beland. Ben: Okay, how do these community become established in a second location, is it family that moved away? Welele: Not necessarily because don t forget Vodou is universal. If it is normal to have a Dahomian or a Dereyal, kingdoms, or Congo this is why you find several Congo rites. Congo rites are found in Soukri but it is not the same rhythm you would find in Port-Au- Prince, that s the second Congo rhythm, or a third in Okay. (He then makes the sound of each Congo drum played in different cities) Do you understand? 20

21 nan Okay (Li bi dim pidi pa pi tim pit pa). Ou konprann? Ben: Uh huh. Welele: Se nan menm chan enèji yo tou ki fòs manye ti, ki la lè bezwenn. Eske se yon enèji tou wouj difè, oubyen on enèji ba oubyen ki byen kalm, dous pou kalme? Ben: Woz la? Welele: Sa pral depann ki kote ak chak moun, men si chak pwenn. Tankou, legliz Katolik fè l yo gen yon chapèl o pawas kèlkeswa kote sou la te pou yo. Ben: Kongo Okay, o Kongo Welele: Soukri. Ben: Soukri, lè toujou gen eleman rekonan sa. Welele: Mè wi, yo gen pwen kome, Kongo. Ben: Tankou lwa Kongo yo? Welele: Lwa Kongo yo se lwa ki renmen larejwisans, ki la pou fete. Tankou mwen di ou sa depan de kisa chan de enèji bezwen, men yo konekte menm kote paske nan peyi Kongo, on peyi tankou Ayiti, ou jwenn yon pil depatman andan li men nan Kongo gen pil lòt depatman yo tou. Ben: Uh huh. Welele: Se toujou menm Kongo a. Pa egzanp sou l al Jacmel, w al Okay, w al Okap se Ayiti, se tonjou menm Ayisien. Ayisien Okap, ki Kapwa Ayisien ki Jakmelyen. Ben: Uh huh. Welele: It is in the same field of energy also is the magnetic force that is there when needed. Is it a red energy, or a low energy, or calm or sweet energy to calm? Ben: The pink one? Welele: That depends on each person but that is the point. For example, the Catholic Church builds a chapel or church wherever they feel necessary in the world. Ben: Congo Les Cayes, or Congo Welele: Soukri. Ben: Soukri, it always has a recognizeable element in it? Welele: Yes, they have common points, Congo. Ben: Like the Congo spirits? Welele: The Congo spirits are spirits like joyfulness, they are here to party. For instance, it depends on what the field of energy needs, but they are connected because in Congo, a country like Haiti, you find a lot of departments within it but Congo has a lot of other departments, too. Ben: Uh huh. Welele: It is always the same Congo. For example if you go to Jacmel, Les Cayes, and Cap-Haïtien they are in Haiti, they are still Haitian. They are residents of that city. 21

22 Ben: Wi se sa, karaktè local Welele: Karaktè local, li pran pwodi milye ak Ben: Oke, wi se sa. Epi petèt pou mande yon denyè kesyon: Ki jan ou wè lavi Vodou? Welele: Enbyen lavi Vodou se yon fiti e jwa. Chanje mwen toujou di anvin moun sou la te sou on fiti risk. Ben: Hmm. Welele: Fiti a riske. Anbyen Vodou ki se lespri ki nan pyebwa a, gade jan pyebwa a kontan men si se pa mwen menm ou menm ki vin deranje l, koupe l lap fè de milya. Se sa fè mwen te di ou nou se Bondye nan Bondye. Kisa nou pral fè pou viv sa, paske se Bondye ki kreye sa a. Si l kreye sa li gen nesesite l poukisa pou nou l detri l. Sa ke pou epi si ou gade byen ane 1960 sou Lesko, sou Petyon, mouvman rejete. Oke? Tanbou se te on enstriman yo te di djab, anbyen menm moun ki te di tanbou djab nan legliz Pwotestan nan legliz Katolik you gen tanbou kounye a. Ben: Mwen te wè sa a nan legliz Katolik an Ayiti. Welele: Anbyen, Vodou Ben: L ap antre lakay yo. Welele: Se lespri, lespri pa ka disparèt. Kisa ki lespri, ki fè ou pa ka wè l, ou poko pare. Lespri se ki sa l li ye se, moun matyè fizik oubyen sa yo rele moun ap oubyen sikolojik, moun fèt de matyè e de nanm, matyè se sa m ka touche, am se sa fè m ap pale avèk ou, gen de milye bagay nan kesyon ou poze mwen la. Nan de milye kesyon ou chwazi youn, menm Ben: Yes, local characteristics... Welele: Local characteristics, he or she takes the product of the local environment Ben: Okay, yes, that s it. And perhaps a final question: How do you see Vodou s future? Welele: Well Vodou s future is a future of joy. Remember I always say the life of people on earth is a future at risk. Ben: Hmm. Welele: The future is a risk. Well, Vodou is like a sprit that is in a tree, look at how the tree is happy, but if I don t destroy the tree or cut it, it will last for two billion years. This is why I said we are God within God. It is what we do with this life, because God created it. If he created it then it must have a purpose. Then why would we destroy it? This is why if you look at 1960, under Lescot, under Petyon, it was the rejection movement. Okay? Drums were instruments that were said to be demonic and the same people who said drums were demonic now have drums in Protestant and Catholic churches. Ben: I saw this when I visited a Catholic church in Haiti. Welele: Well, Vodou Ben: It is entering their homes. Welele: It is a spirit, spirits can t disappear. You don t see spirits because you are not ready. What is a spirit? A person, physical matter, or what they call people or a psychological person made of physical or spiritual matter. Nanm is what hands can touch, what makes me able to talk to you. There are two million questions you can ask 22