O'REILLY. hulle het die fasiliteite om die band weer skoon te maak. We sent the tapes with regard to which no significant

Transcription

1 O'REILLY hulle het die fasiliteite om die band weer skoon te maak. We sent the tapes with regard to which no significant incidents have taken place to Vereeniging because there are facilities to clean these tapes in Vereeniging. MNR. HATTINGH: Hoekom moet die bande weer skoongemaak word voordat hulle weer gebruik kan word? Die persone van MID wat die bande skoongemaak het, het aan ons verduidelik dat as jy die band eers skoonmaak voordat jy hom weer gebruik danverhoog jy die lewensduur van die "tape" en dan ook is die gesprekke wat jy wel opneem is dan helder. (10) The people who clean these tapes explained to us that if the tapes are clean then the lifespan of the tapes becomes longer and even the recording also becomes r r clearer. ^ a,> MNR. HATTINGH: - En kry u dan weer so n skoongemaakte band ^ van MID af? Dit is reg, MID bring h merk op hom aan om te wys hy is skoongemaak. We would receive these tapes back from MID and they would put a mark on the tape to indicate that it had been cleaned. (20) MNR. HATTINGH: Wat is die aard van die aanduiding wat daarop aangebring word dat die band skoongemaak is? Kyk I daar is mos h plakkertjie op die band geplak. MID trek in die middel van die plakkertjie h swart lyn en dan *n klomp blokkies wat hom so kruis om te wys hy is skoongemaak. There is normally a tape.. A sticker. A sticker on the tape. Now MID would draw certain lines of the sticker which would indicate that the tape had been cleaned. MNR. HATTINGH: En ontvang u dit dan weer terug? Dit (30) is /..

2 O'REILLY is bevestigend. MNR. HATTINGH; MNR. HATTINGH: And we would receive these tapes back again. En gebruik u dit dan weer? Dit is reg. And we would use them again. En wat van bande waarop daar nou meer betekenisvolle gebeurtenisse op vasgele is? Gewoonlik as jy *n band uit die masjien uithaal, kyk ons het hom nou ingesit. Die volgende keer wat die masjien afgegaan het omgedraai. Wanneer ek hom dan uithaal.. With regard to those tapes where significant(10) occurrences have been recorded we would normally remove the tape when it is full. Turn it around. Turn it around, yes. Tape on the other side. And tape on the second side as well. En op die ou end haal ons hom, as hy nou albei kante opgeneem is haal ons hom uit. Dan plak jy jou plakkertjie op met die datum wat hy ingegaan het en die datum wat jy hom uitgehaal het. Then we would again remove it when both the tapes are full and then we would put a sticker on the tapes and we would indicate on the sticker the day on which the record-(20) ing was made. On the day I put it in and the date I took it out. It would also have the date on which it was put into the machine and the day when it was removed. Dan as iets belangriks gebeur het soos Boipatong byvoorbeeld dan sou ek agter die datum sou ek geskryf het Boipatong of waar iets gebeur het. Where something significant might have taken place such as Boipatong I would also after the date indicate Boipatong. (30) CHAIRMAN: /..

3 O'REILLY CHAIRMAN; Boipatong as an example? Ja. MNR. HATTINGH; En as u nou so h betekenisvolle gebeurte- nis opgeneem het en die band uitgehaal het en die plakkertjie daarop aangebring het met so h inskrywing, wat maak u dan met die band? As dit so h band is waarop iets belangrik gebeur het neem ek die band en ek gaan sit horn in die kaptein se kluis, daar is twee sulke klein laaitjies onder; dan sit ek horn in die regterkantse laaitjie vir bewaring. With regard to tapes that have significant (10) occurrences on I would after having removed the tape take it into the Captain's office. There is a drawer.. Yi Kluis. n Kluis en h laai in die kluis? Ja, h laai in die kluis. A drawer in the safe where I would put the tapes in. MNR. HATTINGH: En word dit dan daar toegesluit? Dit is reg. They would then be locked into the save. MNR. HATTINGH: En wat van bande wat minder betekenis- (20) volie gebeurtenisse op vasgele is? Dit word in die kaptein se kantoor in h kas toegesluit. The tapes with less significant incidents are locked into the captain's office in a cupboard. MNR. HATTINGH: Nou vandat u die apparaat begin gebruik het, het u die bande omgedraai om op die ander helfte ook op te neem? Ja, altyd. I have always had to turn around tapes that I have recorded on since we have started using this machine. MNR. HATTINGH: Wanneer het u vir die eerste keer (30) agtergekom/..

4 O'REILLY agtergekom dat u nie veronderstel was om dit te doen nie? Ek kan nie vir u die presiese datum gee nie maar dit was nadat die ondersoekspan wat ondersoek ingestel het na die verrigtinge in Boipatong die bande van my geneem het. I cannot give you the precise date when I realised that I was not supposed to tape on both sides but it was after the team came to investigate after the Boipatong incident had come and they had taken the tapes from me. MNR. HATTINGH: Wat het toe gebeur? Nadat hulle die (10) bande omtrent h week gehad het, het kaptein Terburgh my geskakel en vir my gese jy is net veronderstel om aan die een kant van die bande op te neem. Kaptein wie? Terburgh. After about a week that they had taken the tapes from me Captain Terburgh inform me that I was not supposed to have taped on both sides of the cassette. MNR. HATTINGH: En van toe af, hoe gebruik u nou die appa- raat? Van toe af gebruik ons slegs een kant van die band dan haal ons hom uit. (20) We have now been using only side of'the tape eversince and we would then remove it. MNR. HATTINGH: Nou kan u die gebeure van die Boipatong- slagting onthou? Ek was nie self die nag van Boipatong aan diens nie, ek het eers die volgende oggend 07:30 aan diens gekom wat ek toe nou volgens die rekords kon sien wat aangegaan het die vorige nag. With regard to the Boipatong massace I was not personally on duty. I only came on duty on the following day in the morning at 07:30. En toe het ek (30) volgens/..

5 O'REILLY volgens die rekords gesien wat die vorige nag gebeur het. And I only observed from the record what had taken place on the previous night. MNR. HATTINGH; En wat het u, sonder om nou op die details van die rekords in te gaan, wat het daardie rekords by u tuisgebring? Dat daar h massaslagting was in Boipatong, in Slovopark. According to these records what I have noticed was that there had been a massacre in Boipatong. MNR. HATTINGH: En hoe het dit u belnvloed, u optrede (10) belnvloed? Wei, vanaf daardie oombli.k wat ek ingestap het, het ek permanent die radio beman tot die aand laat en alles waargeneem wat ingekom het. I was in charge of the radio, personally in charge of the radio from the time of my assumption of duty till the evening when I went off duty. MNR. HATTINGH; Kan u onthou of u deur die loop van daardie dag die bande omgedraai het? Wei, ek kan spesifiek onthou dat ek die bande omgedraai het. I do remember specifically that I did turn (20) over the tapes in the course of that day. MNR. HATTINGH: En daardie bande, kan u onthou of daardie bande daardie dag vol was? Ja, dit was. Ek is die aand omtrent 21:30 huis toe. Voordat ek huis toe is was die bande vol, ek het persoonlik die plakkers opgeplak, die datum opgeskryf, Boipatong, en dit in die kaptein se kluis gebere. The tapes were full before I went off duty. I went off duty at about 21:30. Because they were full, I removed them, put the stickers on them and I had also (30)

6 O'REILLY on these stickers indicated Boipatong. I took this statement to the Captain's office and had them locked up in the safe. MNR. HATTINGH; En vandat u dit gedoen het, weet u uit persoonlike kennis wanneer daardie bande vir die eerste keer weer uit daardie kluis uit geneem is? Ja, ek het van Boipatong se stories af elke dag, ek praat nou van die 18de en 19de, hulle bande ook by die ander in die kluis gaan sit. From the time of this incident of Boipatong(10) I removed the tapes and put them into the safe every day, this is now the 18th and the 19th. En toe die eerste keer wat dit uit die kluis uit verwyder is, is toe ek dit oorhandig het aan adjudant Deetlefs van die ondersoekeenheid. The first time that these tapes were removed from the safe was when I handed them over to Warrant Officer Deetlefs of the investigating team. MNR. HATTINGH; Kan u onthou of u slegs daardie bande oorhandig het en of u ook ander bande van voor of na die (20) insident ook oorhandig het op daardie geleentheid? Oorspronklik het ek net vir hom die eerste twee bande gegee, toe vra hy my vir nog, toe gee ek vir hom h latere stadium, ek dink amper dit was vier bande nog, maar dit was later datums. I have initially given them only two tapes. He asked me for more and I then gave him some more. This was on a later date. Dit was vyf as ek nou.. ja, vyf. It was five tapes. MNR. HATTINGH; En die bande wat u op h later datum vir (30)

7 O'REILLY hom gegee het, was dit bande ten opsigte van gebeure voor Boipatong, na, of beide? Dit was in die tydperk van Boipatong se gebeure aan, ek sal se 19, 20. The dates that I gave to him at a later date were given to him in about the course of the occurrences with regard to Boipatong. This would have been on the.. Ja, 18, 19, 20. Between the 18th, 19th and 20th. MNR. HATTINGH: Dankie, mnr. die Voorsitter. VOORSITTER: Mnr. Mostert, enige vrae? "(10) MNR. MOSTERT: Ek het geen vrae nie, dankie. ONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR. PRETORIUS: Dankie, mnr. die Voorsitter. Die vier kanale wat opgeneem word, kan u net weer aan ons voorhou watter vier kanale is dit? Die telefone, waar kom die telefone vandaan en die twee radio's? Daar is twee telefone in die radiokamer buite die faksfoon; die faksfoon antwoord ons nooit nie, hy is direk op h fakslyn gekoppel. There are two telephones in the radio control room. This excludes the fax phone. We do not answer(20) that one ever. It is directly connected to.. To the fax line. To the fax line. Die twee fone is n direkte lyn sowel as die skakelbord met die uitbreidingslyn. Die twee fone is gekonnekteer. The two phones are connected to this machine. They are direct lines. No, one is a direct line and the one is a switchboard extension. Oh, the two phones are actually one direct line and the other one switchboard. (30) MNR PRETORIUS: /..

8 O'REILLY MNR. PRETORIUS; En die radio's? Die radio's, buiten nou jou minder belangrike radio's soos jou Evkom radio en daardie tipe goed, het jy drie hoofradio's, die hoefre- kwensie.. With regard to the radio's there is.. 11 Three important radio's. slegs on onluste-eenheid op kommunikeer. Die een is h hoefrekwensie wat One would be a high frequency radio which is used only by the ISU. Verskeie van hierdie hoefrekwensieradio's is intussen ook van die handradio's aan ander eenhede (10) verskaf maar dit is ons hoofradio wat ons op kommunikeer. Some of the handradio's though they belong to our unit, were given to other units and they still remain our., (consults with witness) The channel still remains our own. Dan is daar kanaal 5, dit is die distriksradio. Enige persoon met h distriksradio in sy voertuig tensy jy die ou Motorola radio's het wat net drie kanale het, 15 of 21 kanaal radio kan oorgaan op kanaal 5, die onluste-kanaal. (consults with witness) There would also then be a radio with channel 5 (20) which is for the district.. It is possible for the district to go on this radio though it is not their main channel they were working on. Okay, dan is daar h distrikradio wat die hele distrik op werk. There would be a district radio which serves the whole district. Dit is nie ons belangrikste radio nie, die ander twee radio's is radio's waarop ons permanent kommunikeer. This is not our most important radio. The two other radio's are those that we mostly communicate through. (30)

9 O'REILLY So toe het ons besluit dat die twee radio's, aangesien daar net vier kanale tot ons beskikking is. We had then decided that with regard to these two radio's because of the four channels which we have to our disposal.. Was dit belangrik om die twee fone op die twee kanale te sit wat ons gelos het met net twee kanale. It was important to have to telephones which would leave us with only two channels. Toe het ons besluit aangesien dit die twee radio's is waarop ons hoofsaaklik kommunikeer, dit die belangrikste is om hierdie twee radio's (10) op die oorblywende twee kanale te verbind. And then the two channels that were left would be connected to the two radio's. MNR. PRETORIUS; Word daar enige boek gehou van hierdie bande wat u uithaal of daar nie boek gehou nie? Negative. No book is kept. MNR. PRETORIUS: In geval van n probleem met die bandmasjien self as jy nou van diens af gaan en gedurende die aand sou daar h probleem met die masjien self opduik, watse optrede(20) word dan gevolg? Watse probleem? Daar het nog nie h probleem opgeduik nie. As die masjien sou gaan staan byvoorbeeld? Soos dat die bande klaar is? Of daar is 'n probleem dat die bande vashaak? Dit het nog nooit gebeur dat daar h band vashaak nie. We have had no problem. What problem are you referring to? It has never happened that a tape would get stuck. MNR. PRETORIUS: Dankie, mnr. die Voorsitter, ek het (30) geen /..

10 O'REILLY geen verdere vrae nie. EXAMINATION BY Before questioning the witness we want to say that we obviously will need to take instructions from an expert. I do not intend to traverse aspects which may be of a technical nature but we want to establish certain basic facts relating to the recordings. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Sergeant, you say that you have been in this control room and in charge of the control room since November of last year. (10) VOORSITTER: Mag ek net vra, verkies u as vrae in Engels gestel word dan hulle vertaal word of is u..? Ek sal se as ek nie verstaan nie, dankie. Maar antwoord asseblief in Afrikaans. Ja, dit is reg. That is since you were in charge since November were you in that control room prior to that time, but not in charge? Nee, ek was voor dit vir twee en 'n half jaar in bevel van die distrikradiokamer. I had been in charge of the district radio (20) room for two and a half years before this. So you have considerable experience in operating a radio control? Seker. And in the previous control room did you also have a means of recording conversations? Nee, hierdie stelsels is ingestel eers van die derde maand af. Regoor die land is daar nog net tien masjiene van hierdie aard geinstalleer en dit is almal eers in die derde maand geinstalleer. No, this system was adopted only in the third month and there has been only ten machines of this kind (30) throughout/..

11 O'REILLY throughout the country. VOORSITTER; Maar voor daardie datum was daar enige stelsel van opname? Nie by ons nie. So daar was geen bandopnamemasjiene in die distriks- kamer nie? Nee, glad nie in ons distrik nie. There has been no such system at all in our district before that. CHAIRMAN; There was no recording at all. Nee. So tape recordings of radio and telephone calls in the ISU in Vereeniging commenced only from 24 March (10) 1992? Dit is reg. And it has been operating since that time and is still in operation? Dit is reg. That.is so. MR KUNY; And as far as I understand your evidence you have never had a problem with the equipment? Nee. No. The equipment has worked perfectly satisfactorily and it still works perfectly satisfactorily? Dit is (20) reg. That is so. And as far as you were concerned it was working satisfactorily on 17/18 June of this year? Dit is reg. That is so. When the machine was installed you saw that the technician who installed it gave you an instruction as to how to operate it? Dit is reg. That is so. Do you have any technical background at all? (30)

12 O' REILLY Nee. No. MR KUNY; Are you interested in music tapes? Ja. Do you have your own tape recorder? Ja, dit is reg. Yes. MR KUNY; And you know how to operate a tape recorder? Dit is reg. Yes. And when you operate an ordinary music tape (10) recorder you use ordinary commercial tapes that you can buy in a store? Dit is reg. That is so. And those tapes run for varying lengths and are of different qualities? Dit is reg. That is so. I see that the tapes that were being used in this instance were TDK D120 tapes. Nee, nie almal nie, dit het afgehang van die beskikbaarheid. Party van hulle was 60s, party was 90s en party was 120s. (20) Not all the tapes, it depended on the availability of tapes. Some of them were 60s, others were 90s and there were others of 120. Well, the tapes that we have seen which relates to this particular matter were TDK D120 tapes. Ek sal dit nie spesifiek kan bevestig nie, ek weet nie wat het ek die betrokke dag in die bandmasjien gehad nie. Yes. I would not be able to confirm that. I do not remember what precisely I had in the recording room (30) on /..

13 O'REILLY on that day. MR KUNY; But you will confirm that the number 120 relates to the playing time of the tape, does it not? Nee, die band beweeg teen h verskriklike stadige spoed. Jy kan nie op h normale radiok&ssetspeler weer gaan luister nie. You see, this tape moves at a terribly slow speed. One cannot go and use it in an ordinary radio or hi-fi. MR KUNY; No, once itf has played, once it has been recorded I assume that you cannot replay it on an ordinary ma- (10) chine. Nee, jy kan nie. No, you cannot. En die tydsduur, die tyds- > duur van horn sal 120 wees as hy in h gewone radio opgeneem word maar omdat dit so stadig is op ons radio gaan dit van jou aantal gesprekke, jou telefoongesprekke en jou radiogesprekke afhang hoe lank daardie band gaan wees. Yes, it would 120 minutes in an ordinary radio but because machine of our is so slow it would take.. CHAIRMAN; Much longer. Veel langer as 120. Play much longer on our machine. (20) MR KUNY;* Yes, I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that the tape that was used whether it be a D120 or 90 or 60, is the ordinary type of commercially obtainable tape, but it is used in a machine which records at a much slower rate than a normal machine records? Dit is reg. That is so. So that when we have here a TDK120 tape, it is the ordinary tape that you can go and buy in a store? Dit is reg. That is so, yes. (30) /..

14 O'REILLY And those are the types of tapes whether they were 60 or 90 or 120 which you used in this special machine? Dit is reg. And the number of the tape that you buy deter-' mines the playing time of that tape if it is played in a normal machine. Dit is reg. In your case it would play at a much slower pace and therefore would last much longer? Dit is reg. (10) And these tapes have the capacity for being recorded on both sides? Dit is reg. In other words, it is run for 60 minutes on one side in the case of the D120, you turn the tape over and can record on the other side independently of what is contained on the first side? Dit is reg. And in the machine which you were using you (20) have always used the tape to its maximum capacity. Aan albei kante, ja. Yes, on both sides. Because as I understand your description it is one of these tape recorders and we saw one during the adjournment which has the capacity to take two tapes at the same time; you load two tapes into it and one tape runs and when that tape has been completed, the second tape runs. Dit is reg. (30) /..

15 O'REILLY MR KUNY; Is that right? Dit is reg. And when the tapes have been completed on the one side you turn them round and you can then use the other side of the tape? Dit is reg. And when you are recording on the second side, you are not wiping off what is contained on the first side? Gewoonweg nie, maar ons het toe mos nou agterna uitgevind toe die kommissie vir ons gese het jy kan nie daarop (10) "tape" nie. Normally yes, but we only realised at a later stage when we were told that were not to tape on the other side as well. Does this mean that all the tapes that you have recorded since 24 March 1992 are only in fact recorded on the one side and had what had wiped out what was contained on the other side? Dit is reg. Every single tape since March 1992? Dit is (20) reg. And when did you discover this for the first time? Toe die ondersoekspan ons die dag, kaptein Terburgh my se dat ek nie veronderstel is om aan albei die kante - toe hulle nou luister na die bande toe kom hulle dit agter. This was when we were told by the investigating team, Captein Terburgh, when he told me that we were not supposed to have taped on both sides. Was it ever necessary for you after 24 March (30) and /..

16 O'REILLY and before you received this information, to listen back to any recordings that have been made by you since the time you started using this machine? Laat ek net eers vir u verduidelik, ons het nie die toerusting om te luister na daardie band nie. Let me first explain this. We do not have the apparatus to listen to these tapes. A1 waarop ons na daardie band kan luister is op daardie spesifieke bandmasj ien. We can only listen to these tapes on that very ma- (10) chine. En deur elke dag die bande te moet deurluister sal ons die kans ontneem om daardie dag se gebeure op te neem, verstaan u? By having to listen to these tapes every day we would be interfering with our chances to record occurrences. So daar is nie sommer net willekeurig geluister na die tapes wat daar was nie. Daar was een voorval wat ek wel na h band geluister het. There was no uncontrolled listening to tapes. There was only one occasion when I listened to a tape. Dit (20) was n telefoniese ge.sprek tussen my en h prokureur wat ek die kaptein se aandag op wou vestig. Ek het hom ingeroep. This has been a recording of a telephonic conversation between myself and a lawyer and a Captain came in to listen. Ek het vir kaptein Roos, dit was omtrent h halfuur na n uur vandat ek met die dame op die foon gepraat het, die prokureur. This was after about half an hour to an hour after I had spoken to the lady. Het ek net die band teruggespeel, ge-"rewind". (30) I /..

17 O'REILLY I rewound the tape. Die kaptein het na die gesprek geluister en ons was altwee tevrede gewees. And the captain listen to that conversation and we were then both satisfied. MR KUNY; And are you saying that since 24 March that was the only occasion on which you have had to listen to a tape Which has been recorded on this machine? Dit is reg, dit was die enigste belangrike ding wat basies op Yi geskilpunt kon uitloop. This was the only thing that(10) - could basically have led to a discrepancy. MR KUNY; Now what happens when you turn the tape around and start recording on the second side, as you have now discovered you say. What actually happens to the tape? Soos die mense dit nou vir my verduidelik het, het jy gewoonweg as jy jou band nou van die bokant af.sien, sal jou kant A daardie kant wees en jou kant B hierdie kant. According to what these people explained to me, you see what you normally would see is when looking at your tape you would be having side A and side B on the (20) other side. Yes. Nou normaalweg, ek gaan julle net vinnig wys wat ek bedoel. I am just quickly going to demonstrate what I mean. Normaalweg soos jy jou tape so van bo af sien is daardie jou kant A, daardie jou kant B. If you would normally look at your tape you would have your side B and your side A. As jy nou in h gewone hi-fi by die huis gaan tape. And if you were to take in a normal hi-fi such as the(30)

18 O'REILLY one at home. Gaan jy jou kant A daarso tape. Side A would be taped on that side. As dit die mag- netiese band is, is hy dan basies in twee dele gedeel. Jy kan dit nie met die oog sien nie. The magnetic tape is basically divided into two. Now you cannot see both just with the naked eye. Maar soos jy horn omdraai, tape jy dan nou weer op daardie kant. And when you turn it over you would be taping or recording on the other side. Maar omdat jy nou vier kanale hier het wat jy moet tape, tape hy instede van net (10) op een van hierdie goed blykbaar nou.op albei, so oor. Now because one would be having four tracks on which you would tape, you would have it taping over both at the same time if you were to record on both sides. Nou gebeur dit dat jy die band omdraai soos hulle nou agterna vir my verduidelik het. According to the explanation given to me at a later stage this is what would happen if one were to turn the tape around. Omdat hy dan nou reeds aan albei kante van die band getape het, die vier kanale. (20) Because it shall have recorded on both sides in the four tracks. Gaan jy dan nou oor dit tape en net jou laaste opneem. Soos gestel ek het nou gister op kant A getape, vandag op kant B; gaan vandag se gesprekke gister s'n uitvee, wel, nie uitvee nie, hy gaan hom nou oorweldig. Jy gaan vandag se gesprekke dan nou hoor en nie meer gister s'n nie. You would have a recording over the previous recording such as if you had your recording on the previous day and if you were to record today you would have erased it, (30) perhaps/..

19 O'REILLY perhaps not completely but it would be stronger than the previous recording. MR KUNY; So you would have on every one of those tapes that have been turned round the latest recording coming through more strongly and either having erased or partially erased the earlier recording? Ekself het nou nog nie geluister na hoe klink hierdie goed nie maar die mense wat geluister het, bevestig dat jy net die laaste gesprek kan hoor. Die ander een is nou, hy is dood, jy hoor horn nie meer nie; die vorige gesprek. (10) I have not personally listened to how these things would sound but the people who listened to them tell me that the later recording is much stronger than the previous recording. MR KUNY; So we have the situation then that the tape is not blank but the tape does have the latest recording for as long as that side played? Dit is reg. MR KUNY; And that may have been for up, for between six and twelve hours. Nee, jy kan nie h tydsduur se nie. (20) Well, it could have been. You cannot say for what duration it has been. MR KUNY; It depends on how many calls there were during that period? Ja, ek kan nie vir u spesifiek se watter tye nie, dit sal alles afhang van hoe besig jou radio en jou fone was. I cannot specifically say for what duration of time, this would only depend on how busy your radio's and/or telephones were busy at that stage. Yes. Now were you on duty at all on 17 June? (30)

20 OH^EILLY Dit is reg, ek was aan diens gewees van 07:30 die oggend tot 16:00 die middag. I was on duty from 07:30 in the morning up to 16:00 in the afternoon. And who took over from you when you left at 16:00 in the afternoon? Ek sal nie vir u met sekerheid kan se nie. I cannot tell you with any precision. And what was the state of the tapes in the ma- 'chine when you left at 16:00 on the 17th? Well, dit sal(10) ek ook nie vir u met sekerheid kan se nie. Ek sal nie vir u kan se ek het 16:00 daardie middag geruil of ek het 13:30 die middag geruil nie, maar die normale prosedures was dat ek die bande omruil voor ek loop. I cannot precisely tell you that I had changed the tapes at either 15:30 or 16:00 but what I normally would have done is.. Change the tapes before I go. Change the tapes before I go. To ensure that there would be sufficient tapes in the machine to cover the period until you came on duty (20) the next morning? Dit is reg. So that there would be tapes there which would cover at least a 12 to 15 hour period? Dit is reg. Now can you say whether on the afternoon of 17 June when you left you put new tapes into the machine or whether you merely turned over the existing tapes to tape on the second side? Ek moes daardie middag nuwe tapes ingesit het want ek het die oggend die tapes geruil en (30) die /..

21 REILLY die aand toe die B-kant vol was uitgehaal en in die kaptein se kluis gesit. I must have changed the tapes that evening because I had turned over the tapes in the morning. No, no. New tapes in the 17th the afternoon, the 18th the morning I put them on the B side and the 18th the evening I took it out. I must have put in new tapes the afternoon of the 17th because in the morning I turned them over and I would have removed them to put them in, to have them locked up in (10) the afternoon. So when you say you turned them over in the morning does that mean you switched them onto the B side in the morning? Dit is reg. Because new 'tapes always start on the A side and at the end of the A side you go on to the B side? Dit is reg. So when did you take out the previous tapes, (20) that morning of the 17th or in the afternoon when you left? Die 17de s'n? Yes. Die 17de s'n moes ek dan mos nou uitgehaal het 16:00 wanneer ek nuwe tapes ingesit het 16:00. I must have taken out the tapes to put in the new tapes at 16:00 on the 17th. On the A side? Nee, nie spesifiek nie want u sien hierdie tapes wat ek ingesit het kon wees van die wat MID skoongemaak het, so hulle kon aan enige kant gewees het wanneer ek hulle ingesit het. Dit was nie spesifiek die (30) A-kant/..

22 O' REILLY A-kant nie. Ek sou wel my plakkertjie A gemaak het. The tapes I put in were the tapes that were sent back from MID so they would have been any side, without any indication of whether it is A or B. VOORSITTER; Maar die punt is soos ek u verstaan, sersant, in die namiddag sit u h nuwe band, twee nuwe bande in die masjien en dit word omgeruil die volgende oggend. Nee, nee, normaalweg as ons nie probleme het nie het ek tyd gehou van 16:00 tot 16:00 die volgende middag. So ek sou Maandag 'n nuwe tape insit, Dinsdag omruil; Woensdag h (10) nuwe tape insit, Donderdag so en nie met spesifiek daardie verwysing nie maar min of meer daardie prosedures. We would not be changing these tapes in that order. Normally when we were not busy I would put in new tapes at 16:00, they would last until 16:00 on the following day and then I would change them. MNR. HATTINGH; Dit wil my voorkom asof die getuie - sy probeer my aandag trek, ek weet nie of sy h probleem ervaar van een of ander aard nie? Ek wil net vir u iets se. (20) - U kan ongelukkig nie nou met my praat nie. Daar is iets wat ek wil se. Ja. Die omstandighede rondom Boipatong was *n verskriklike druk situasie. Ons het daardie oggend na Boipatong se storie daar ingestap en daar was behoorlik nie asemgehaal nie, die radio was nie h sekond stil nie, maar ek het so pas onthou dat die hoefrekwensieradio, ek kan nie vir u h tyd gee deur die dag nie maar het my hoefrekwensieradio gebreek. My hoefrekwensieradio is toe ver- vang met een wat radiotegnies, ons het h radiotegniese (30) afdeling/..

23 O'REILLY afdeling wat tydelike daar diens doen, het vir my h hoe- frekwensieradio gebring. Die hoefrekwensieradio was nie opgekoppel op die bandmasjien nie. Kan ek aangaan? (Laughter; interpreter intimates that it was too much) During that day the high frequency radio broke down. Sorry, the 18th or the 17th? Well, Boipatong was the 17th. Yes. So it was the next morning. Yes. So they came and they took my main radio in the radio room. They took it and they brought me another (10) one, a standby system. This standby system was not connected to the tape. I cannot tell you it was an hour, two hours but for the duration of that there was nothing on tape for that hour. Yes, but on the 17th and the night of the 17th, was there anything wrong with the radio? No, no. The high frequency radio in particular. Nee, nee, dit was die volgende oggend gewees. It was on the following morning. MR KUNY; And you say the radio control room was excep- (20) tionally..(mechanical interruption)..received many calls andyou say that it was a pressure situation that existed in that radio control room. Definitief. Definitely, yes. MR KUNY; /.

24 K O'REILLY Now when do you mark a tape once you have taken it out of the machine, do you mark it immediately? -- Onmiddellik as ek hom uithaal plak ek die plakkertjie op en ek merk hom. When I remove a tape I would immediately put the sticker on and I would mark the tape. Have you had a look at the tapes of that particular day and the following day, the 17th and 18th, I think they are available in court, in the commission. CHAIRMAN: Have you got them here, Mr du Toit? MR DU TOIT: I haven't got them here Mr Chairman, I can quickly(10 send to fetch them. CHAIRMAN: MR?? CHAIRMAN: Would you like them? Yes, I will carry on in the mean time. It is at the hotel in a safe deposit box. Pardon? MR?? The tapes are at the hotel, I can go and fetch them. CHAIRMAN: Oh, well can you go and get them? MR?? Yes, I will. They were here during the adjournment when we listened in the other room. (20 CHAIRMAN: They were here this morning? Oh, I see. MR DU TOIT: Yes. MR?? Ja, but Glen took it just after tea. I Well, if we can just carry on, Sergeant. Are you then telling this commission that when this machine was installed and it was only one of ten in radio control rooms throughout the country and you received instruction on how to use it, because it is not an ordinary type of tape-recorder, it is a special type? -- Hmmm. You were never told that you could only record on one side of the tape? -- Nee, en selfs in hierdie handleiding se hulle(30 n rens/

25 K O'REILLY nlrens dat jy net aan die een kant van die ding kan "tape" nie. Yes, I was not told and it is not indicated anywhere in the manual that one is not supposed to tape on both sides. Yes, in fact I want to ask you about that manual because, and if I may have a look at it please. -- Ja, seker. I don't understand that passage that was referred to by my learned friend Mr Hattingh to mean that you can't record only-on the one side of the tape. Nowhere in this manual (-10 is it so stated. -- Inteendeel hulle het vir my spesifiek ges jy kan hom op albei kante tape. In the contrary, what I was told was that I could tape on both sides. And you wer.e told this by the man who installed the machine? -- Dis reg. CHAIRMAN: What was his name again? Van Vuuren. Van Vuuren. -- Adjudant van Vuuren. (20 Warrant Officer van Vuuren. Is he a technician in the South African Police Force? -- Dit is reg. V00RSITTER: Ek verstaan hy het uitdruklik ges dat u kan op beide kante.. (tussenbei). -- Dis reg. Dis reg. Yes, he did say I could record on both sides. And you say that there is nothing in the manual which says that you can't? -- Nee. It talks somewhere about using a screwdriver in order to (30 (incomplete)/

26 Collection Number: AK2672 Goldstone Commission BOIPATONG ENQUIRY Records PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg 2012 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand.