THE BAILIFF: All rise for the jury. (Recess taken.) THE COURT: Let's bring your next witness up, please. 0 0 MS. OSWALD: State would call Officer Jason Kelly to the stand. THE COURT: Why don't you get him, please. MS. OSWALD: This witness has not been sworn, Your Honor. THE COURT: Raise your right hand, please. (Witness sworn.) THE COURT: All right. From the State, please. JASON KELLY, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. OSWALD: Q. Officer, will you please introduce yourself to the jury. I'm Detective Jason Kelly. I work for the Baytown Police Department. Q. And how long have you been with Baytown? A. I've been with Baytown almost years, four of which have been in the Crimes Against Children Division. Q. Before we talk about the Crimes Against
0 0 Children Division, let's talk about your training. Prior to being with Baytown PD, what did you do before that? A. Went to college, studied criminal justice. Q. And then after did you have to go through a police academy? A. Went through a three-month police academy before I put on the uniform to become a problem officer. Q. And what kind of things do you learn at the academy? A. Laws, basic police tactics, techniques. Q. And then after those three months of kind of learning the basics, what do you do? A. Depending on the department you are in Baytown, you spend three months with a senior officer riding around in a car, them teaching you how to be a police officer. Q. So kind of like a training period? A. Yes. Q. After that three months, what did you do at that point in time? A. At that point I was released to become an officer by myself, ride around, answering calls, doing normal police routine things. Q. How long were you a patrol officer before you
0 0 became a detective? A. Seven years. Q. And what kind of extra training and experience did you have to go through to become a detective with Baytown? A. Just numerous training classes, basic investigator courses starting off and depending on which division or group you go into. From that point, you know, you take specific training, depending on what field you're in. Q. And how long have you been with the child abuse division? A. It will be almost four years in July. Q. What kind of training did you go through to be able to be a detective on these kind of cases? A. Just numerous. Everything from forensic-type training, you know, depending on what the cases are to just learning how to deal with these type of cases specifically. Q. And did you choose to go into child abuse or were you selected for that division? A. I was chosen to do Crimes Against Children. Q. And so you've been doing that for the past four years, is that right?
0 0 Q. And how many cases at any given time are you investigating? A. When I started off in the division I had 0 put on my desk. Q. And did that range from -- A. It ranges -- Q. -- sexual abuse to actual physical abuse? A. Physical abuse, neglectful supervision, sexual abuse, anything relating to children. Q. Now, what does your normal investigation on sexual abuse cases of children entail? A. Like, the -- how they come in and such? Q. Yes. A. Okay. Basically, our cases come in two ways. One way is through CPS, they come to our department and then we go off of that specific report. The other way is when a patrol officer takes the report. And once they're reported -- either way the report is received through to our department, they're routed to me. My sergeant gives them to me and I have to go forth with them at that point. At that point then I make contact with the victim's parents and then I go from there. Q. Now, did you get assigned a case where the suspect was Jerry Mac Cameron? A. Yes, I did.
0 0 Q. And when did you -- how did that case come to be under your investigation? A. It was assigned to me by my sergeant. Q. Do you know how the case actually came to the Baytown Police Department? A. One of our patrol officers off the street took the original report. Q. And after the original report is taken how long did it take to be assigned to you? A. That really varies on when the sergeant reviews the reports. It could be a day, it could be, you know, a couple weeks. It just depends on him. Q. And if you're aware, how long did it take for the report to be generated by the patrol officer before it actually got to your desk and you had a chance to start investigating? A. Could I review my report? Q. Yes. Yes, you may. A. The report was taken on 0- and I was actually assigned this one on the same day. I'm sorry, October, 0. Q. Okay. Now when you were assigned it, do you actually -- were you able to actually start to investigate and delve into the case at that time? A. No, ma'am.
0 0 Q. When did you actually -- are you able to start interviewing witnesses and investigating the case? A. I began basically the investigation on November, 0, with the forensic interview. Q. And why was there that month delay between the report that the -- from the complainant's mother and the time you started investigating? A. Caseload. First one in, first one up; unless it's, you know, my sergeant tells me to get on this one, a specific one. I try to go down the order to be fair. Q. Is there kind of a triage system with regards to certain cases that come into your division? A. Very much so. Q. Okay. Now, on November, 0, what happened with regards to the case and this defendant? A. The victim, Alyssa Velez, had a forensic interview. Q. And were you there? Where was the forensic interview? Where did the forensic interview take place? A. The forensic interview took place at the Children's Assessment Center in Houston. Q. And are you familiar with the Children's Assessment Center? Q. What is the Children's Assessment Center?
0 0 0 A. The Children's Assessment Center is basically a -- it's a three-story building. It houses everyone from law enforcement, CPS, forensic interviewers, social workers. They have play rooms. It's basically dedicated to children. There at the assessment center, the children will go there. We make a loss -- peace officers and CPS workers make appointments for these children to be interviewed by a forensic interviewer. Forensic interviews are basically people who have been trained to talk to kids. Police officers do not talk to kids when it comes to sexual abuse. We make an appointment, they go and they sit down with an interviewer. Interviews can be anywhere from -- I would say the shortest I've been to one, maybe minutes, all the way up to possibly an hour. And from that point, I sit in a separate room; it's just the interviewer and the child. And they speak back and forth, you know, about, you know, whatever it is they've come to talk to them that day. And I view it from a side room. I view it live, in most cases if I'm able to be there. And then I just watch while the interviewer just speaks to the child. Q. And were you able to watch this interview live?
0 0 A. Yes, I was. Q. And then after the complainant spoke with a forensic interviewer at -- we will call it the CAC, the Children's Assessment Center, what happens? What happened after that? A. In this particular case the next thing that happened was -- is Alyssa had a medical exam at the Children's Assessment Center. I'll say the CAC. The CAC also, I did fail to mention, has a medical clinic for kids to receive sexual assault exams. Q. And after the sexual assault exam occurred you're clearly not in the room during that; is that right? A. No, ma'am. Q. But are you able to review the medical report afterwards? A. Yes. Q. After she completed her medical exam, what happened with this case? What was the next step? A. The next step is for me for start setting up appointments to who I need to interview. Q. And who was the first person that you interviewed in this case? A. Alyssa's mother, Jeanie Sanchez. Q. And when did you interview Jeanie Sanchez?
0 0 A. November, 0. Q. Okay. And was Jeanie Sanchez also the reportee in this case? A. Yes, she was. Q. What did you -- without talking about what she stated to you, what did you interview Ms. Sanchez about? A. About what Alyssa had told her about what had occurred. Q. And did she tell about the outcry that Alyssa had made to her about -- A. Yes, she did. Q. And were you able to determine from Ms. Sanchez' statement to you around the date that this allegation of sexual abuse occurred? A. Yes, she stated when she -- yes, ma'am. She did. Q. And what date did you determine that this sexual abuse or allegation of sexual abuse occurred? A. I'm going to have to look at my -- Q. Go ahead? A. -- to make sure. September, 0. Q. Now, after you interviewed Ms. Sanchez, was this after you were able to watch the interview, as well as see the medical results? Is that right?
0 0 A. I'm not sure about the medical results. Q. Okay. But you were able to watch the forensic interview? Q. And in the forensic interview, did the complainant make a statement with regards to what happened to her? A. She did. Q. Were you able to convey what the complainant stated in the forensic interview to her mother? I usually do, I don't remember exactly if I mentioned it. Q. If you can remember, was Ms. Sanchez surprised about anything that was disclosed by the complainant in the forensic interview? A. No, ma'am. Q. Now, after you spoke with Ms. Sanchez, who did you speak with after that? A. The next person I contacted was Jerry Cameron. Q. Okay. And how did you first contact Jerry Cameron? A. Through telephone. Q. And was he willing to come in and speak with you?
0 0 Q. And when did he come in to speak with you at the police department? A. December, 0. Q. Okay. So, December, 0, is about three months after the alleged allegation; is that right? Q. And when you interviewed him did you record it? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you let him know that you were recording the interview? A. I'm not sure if I told him that or not. Q. Did you tell him -- was he under arrest? Did you Mirandize him? How did that go? A. I told him he was free to leave any time he wanted, the door was unlocked, he was not under arrest, he was not going to jail. Q. And did he still want to speak with you? Q. And how was his demeanor throughout the interview? A. It was good. I mean, he was -- he talked back and forth. You know, he answered questions when I asked. Q. And were you the only detective in the room with him?
0 0 A. No, there was another detective. Detective Gallow. Q. And when the defendant came into the interview -- have you had a chance to interview with the defendant prior to testifying today? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Do you remember what he wore? A. Yes, he had a black hat on, blue jeans, and, of course, he had his eye patch. That's a distinctive eye -- Q. Did he have his glasses on over his eye patch? A. Yes, he did. Q. And Jerry Mac Cameron, who came in to interview with you, is he sitting in the courtroom today? Q. Can you identify him using an article of clothing and something distinctive that he is a wearing? A. He's wearing a light blue shirt with a black or navy coat. MS. OSWALD: May the record reflect the witness has positively identified the defendant? THE COURT: The record will so reflect. Q. (BY MS. OSWALD) In that interview -- how do you generally conduct interviews with possible suspects? A. Non-custodian, meaning they're not under arrest
0 0 and they're free to leave whenever they choose. Q. Okay. A. I'm not making them be there. Q. Okay. And do you start off just asking them about the incident or do you kind of talk about his background and kind of get a little bit more comfortable? A. Yeah, I try to build some rapport just to find out who they are, you know, maybe a just little background. Like any other conversation with anyone else that I would have a conversation with. Q. And did you ask him about the weekend that Alyssa and her sister went to stay at his home? A. I did. Q. And before we talk about that weekend did he describe his home to you? A. Yes. Q. And did he also name the address? A. I'm not sure if he named the exact actual address. Q. Okay. But did he mention the location where his house is at? Q. And are you familiar with that location?
0 0 MS. OSWALD: Your Honor, may I approach? THE COURT: You may. Q. (BY MS. OSWALD) I'm handing you what's been marked as State's Exhibit. Do you recognize this? Q. And how do you recognize it? A. This is the Bay and Bayway, one of the main roads here in Baytown. And then Crow goes into Bayway. Q. And did the defendant state to you that he lived off Crow Road? A. Yes, he stated it was by -- on the bay. Q. Did he, in fact, say that he can see the water from his home? A. Yes. Q. And are you familiar with this area in Baytown? Q. And is this area in Baytown in Harris County? A. Yes, it is. MS. OSWALD: Tendering State's Exhibit to defense counsel at this time. MS. BROWN: I'm going to object, Your Honor, because the item that's highlighted is not where his house is. MS. OSWALD: Your Honor, it's Crow is what's located; but I'm under the impression that he
0 0 lives on the same lot as Crow, /, or however it is. THE COURT: I think you've clarified it. It's overruled. State is admitted. MS. OSWALD: Permission to publish at this time? THE COURT: You may. Q. (BY MS. OSWALD) Now, Detective Kelly, did you have a chance to go out to this location? A. I did not. Q. But the defendant did describe to you that his home is a home that is near the water, is that right? Q. How did you come across the address Crow Road? A. Jeanie Sanchez provided that address. Q. Okay. And that's the lot that we see right here, is that right? Q. Now, the defendant stated that he doesn't -- to you, did he state to you that he lives in a smaller unit on that lot? A. Yes, he told me he lived in a studio-sized house. Q. Okay. So when he described the studio-sized
0 0 house to you, what did he mean by that? A. Basically, it's one big room is what he said. And then off his patio or porch he can see the bay. Q. Okay. So it's not a very large house? A. From what he described, but I have not been there. Q. Okay. But he did tell you that it's one big room and possibly the only room that's separate is the bathroom, is that right? Q. Okay. After you talked about where he lived, did you talk about the weekend that Alyssa and Catie came to stay? Q. And who did he say that Catie was? A. Catie is Alyssa's sister and his grandson Jacob's or Jake's girlfriend. Q. Okay. And did he state how old Jake is? A. I'm not sure, but I can refer to my notes and tell you. Q. Okay. A. So he was about years old at that time. Q. And do you know how old Catie was? A. I have her date of birth, as well. I can look at it. About years old.
0 0 0 Q. Now, did you have a chance to ask him about the weekend that Catie and Alyssa came to stay with him? Q. And what did he say about that weekend? A. He basically stated that Catie, and Jacob, and Alyssa came over to his house. And at that point, Alyssa was playing at the house and they were all basically -- he said they were hanging out. Q. Okay. Did you ask directly about him playing with Alyssa? A. He told me about playing with her, that he was good with kids and played with her. They were having a good time while she was at his house. Q. And did he ever state what people call him, like his grandkids and young kids? Did he have a kind of nickname for himself? A. Pappa Mac. Q. Did he, himself say, I'm Pappa Mac? A. Yes. He said he's commonly referred to as Pappa Mac. Q. Did he refer to himself as Pappa Mac on few or may occasions in your interview? A. I remember a couple of times. Q. Now, you were talking about him playing specifically with Alyssa. Did he say anything about how
0 0 he played with her? A. He said he was throwing her around because he said he just played rough with kids. He stated he goosed her, which he defined as tickling. Q. And did you ask where he ended up tickling her? A. He said her stomach. Q. Did you ever ask if he tickled her below her waist? A. I did. Q. And what did he say? A. He said, No, unless it was an accident. Q. Did you ever ask if he had any sort of contact with her underwear or her panties? A. Yes. He said he popped her panties. Q. And what did he say "popping" her panties meant? A. You know with talking with him, you know, the way I kind of interpreted it was, you know, grabbing, like, the top of the panties and pulling it back with elastic and then popping back on the skin. Q. And did he describe what she was wearing when he had access to be able to pop the elastic of her panties? A. He remembered saying that she had on a dress. Q. And did you ask him how he even saw her panties
0 0 with her in her dress? A. Well, he was -- he was talking about how he was roughing her around and kind of throwing her around. So I don't remember specifically, but her panties would be able to be seen under her dress and she didn't have shorts on. Q. And did he say or tell you where he ended up playing, kind of roughhousing with her? Was it on his couch or his bed? A. If I can refer to my notes, I do not remember. He stated he had threw Alyssa on the bed. Q. So he did state that he at one point was playing with her on his bed, is that right? Q. Okay. Did you ever ask him to kind of talk about further why she would be saying that he had touched her vagina? A. He just talked about, you know, how he was goosing her and playing with her. Q. And so when you asked him -- did you ever, you or Detected Gallow, ever ask him, Why would she say you touched her vagina? What was his response to that? A. He said that her mother would tell -- had told her to say it. Q. And did he deny having done that?
0 0 A. Yes, he denied it. Q. And when he denied it would he say anything else with the denial? A. He would say, No, but if I did, I didn't mean to. It would be an accident. I wouldn't mean to do that. Q. Did you ever get a direct, No, I never did that. There was never a chance I could have done that? A. No. Q. You just mentioned that he did say something about Jeanie Sanchez, the complainant's mother; is that right? Q. Did he kind of give you his opinion about her? A. Yes, he did. Q. And what was his opinion about her? A. He said she was a chronic arguer, she just liked to argue a lot and debate. Q. How many times had he told you he had met her prior to that weekend? A. One time. Q. And did he tell you if it was a good or bad interaction? A. He said they had a debate at the time that they met.
0 0 Q. But they didn't really know each other on a regular basis? A. No, he didn't remember what they had argued about. Q. Now, when he was talking about Jeanie Sanchez or the complainant's mother, where was he kind of getting all of his information that she is a chronic arguer and that she maybe told Alyssa to say this? A. He mentioned his grandson and Catie. Q. Now, how many times did you directly ask him about the complainant's allegation that he touched her vagina, if you can remember? Was it a few times or one direct time? A. It was more than once. Q. Okay. And did he ever just give you a flat out denial that, I never did this? A. No, ma'am. Q. What was generally his answer to that question? A. It was generally, I didn't mean to do anything. I didn't do that. If I did, you know, it was an accident. Q. Did you have a chance at the very end of the interview to talk with him about his time in the Marines and his time, you know, when he had his first cigarette? A. Yes, my -- the other detective, because he is a
0 0 Marine, they had that discussion. Q. And how did the defendant's memory seem to be in talking about those, those incidences? A. Very well. He remembered those, a lot of detail. Q. And how was his memory with regard to the weekend that occurred just three months prior? A. Some things he remembered, some things he didn't. Q. Did you have a chance to talk with Jacob Davis, the defendant's grandson? A. I did. Q. And when was that? A. The same day that I spoke to Mr. Cameron. Q. And was that interview also being taped? A. Yes, it was. Q. And how was Jacob's demeanor in that interview? A. He was just kind of -- I guess kind of laid back, just kind of solemn. Q. And did you find out where he was living at the time of that interview on December th? A. He basically told me he was living from place to place. He had lived at Jeanie Sanchez' house for a short time and he would stay -- he said he would stay with Mr. Cameron, as well, sometimes.
0 0 Q. But he didn't have a solid address for you to contact him? A. No. Q. Did you have a chance to ever interview Catie Sanchez, or Catalina Sanchez, Jeanie Sanchez' older daughter? A. I did not interview her. Q. Why did you not interview her? A. I just didn't. Q. Now, at the end of all of this interview did you end up ever getting a chance to look at the med, the medical results? A. I did. Q. And was there anything from the medical results, evidentiary wise, to help you in this case? A. Not from a medical perspective. Q. In all of your times investigating these kinds of cases, have you investigated few or many? A. Many. Q. Is that uncommon to not have medical results to confirm? A. Right. It's often not, rather than, you know, is. Q. Yeah, you're more often have -- A. No evidence to, you know, show either way.
0 0 MS. OSWALD: Pass the witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: From the defense, please. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. BROWN: Q. Detective, I do have a few questions for you. Regarding the questions that you asked of Mr. Cameron -- A. Uh-huh. Q. -- did you clarify to him, specifically, that you were talking about an allegation of a penetration inside the child? Or did you mention touching, in general, because it sounds to me like you were asking him, Did -- you know, when he was tickling, is it possible that he accidently touched her below? And he's saying, I threw her up into the air onto the bed and, you know, maybe what it was, he was trying to catch her or make sure she didn't fall wrong, that his hand might brush the -- MS. OSWALD: Objection, compound nature of the question. THE COURT: Actually, it's not a question. It's a statement. Ask a question. Q. (BY MS. BROWN) Let me clarify. Is it possible he was responding to what he was thought was a question could his hand have accidentally brushed the outside front of her clothing?
0 0 A. Yes, that's possible. Q. So you didn't spell it out for him that you were talking about penetration, did you? A. I told him that Alyssa said that -- that she said that he touched her vagina. Q. My understanding, from listening to your questions, you said that -- you asked him might he accidentally have touched and it was left unsaid whether you meant clothed or unclothed, let alone anything else? A. We didn't speak about clothing. Q. Okay. So he could have thought that you were talking about could he have brushed against the outside of her clothing? MS. OSWALD: Objection, speculation. THE COURT: That's sustained. A. It's possible -- THE COURT: Excuse me. I've sustained it. You don't answer it. Q. (BY MS. BROWN) What do you think he thought your question meant? MS. OSWALD: Objection, speculation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MS. BROWN) To be clear, you never said the word "naked" or unclothed to him, did you? A. No.
0 0 Q. Have you ever known an older person that you're questioning to vividly remember the past, but have trouble with their short-term memory, more recent events? A. Depending on the person, yes. Q. Is that something that does occur in some individuals with age? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MS. BROWN: I pass the witness. MS. OSWALD: Nothing further from this witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: Is he to be excused? MS. OSWALD: Yes, sir. THE COURT: Any objection? MS. BROWN: No objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right. You are excused, sir. Thank you for your testimony. Your next witness, please. MS. OSWALD: State calls Catie Sanchez or Catalina Sanchez to the stand. THE BAILIFF: Your Honor, this witness has not been sworn in. THE COURT: Raise your right hand, please. (Witness sworn.)
0 THE COURT: All right. From the State, please. 0 0 MS. OSWALD: Thank you, Judge. CATALINA SANCHEZ, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. OSWALD: Q. Catie, will you please introduce yourself to the jury and spell your first name. A. My name is Catalina, C-a-t-a-l-i-n-a. And I'm the big sister of Alyssa Velez. Q. Now, does everybody call you Catie, Catalina? A. They call me Catie. Q. Catie, the lady in front of you is a court reporter. She's taking down everything that we are saying, okay. So when I ask you a question, you just wait until I ask you and then you can answer. Okay? Q. All right. Now, Catie, how old are you? A. I'm. Q. And what grade are you in? A. th. Q. What high school do you go to? A. La Porte High School. Q. And what's your favorite subject in high