Q. YOU SAY IN PARAGRAPH 3 OF THlf PAPER THAT YOU'VE

"t... _. ------- -~---------.--~-.-...-------.."-.-"---.~,-~.-".--.---..-..-.~-.--~.~-------"..---+-...---" --_... l... l.... BY MR. MURRY: 0. Q. BUT YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE ST~TSTCAL DFFERENCE STTNG HERE TODAY, DO YOU, SR? A. NO, DON'T RECALL WHAT GOT F HAD RUN A STATSTCAL SGNFCANCE CHECK ON THE THN~. F HAD THE DATA HERE., COULD PROBABLY RUN ONE. Q. YOU SAY N PARAGRAPH OF THlf PAPER THAT YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO ESTABLSH A RATO OF ABOUT ONF TO ONE FOR THESE TWO PERSONNEL CATEGORES, ADMNSTRATVESERV~E TROOPS. AND MANEUVER SN'T T A FACT, SR, THAT YOUR BEST 'i;uess WAS THAT THERE' WAS A RATO OF ONE TO ONE BETliEEN THiESE TWO TYPES OF TROOPS, BUT YOU COULD NOT ESTABLSH T AS A FACT? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJE!CTON TO FORM. A. STRCTLY SPEAKNG, TO ESTABLSH T AS FACT WE HOULD HAVE TO HAVE AN ACCURATE COUNT OF ALL ADMN. SERVCE TROOPS N 7 VETNAM AND AN ACCURATE COUNT OF ALL THE ANEUVER TROOPS N VETNAM, AND WE WOULD THEN DETERMNE WHET THERE WAS AN EXACT 0 DENTCAL NUMBER N EACH PLE. i i WOULD SUBMT THAT THAT, YO~ KNOW, WOULD BE SORT OF A LUDCROUS REQUREMENT. BASED ON A R~ASONABLE STATSTCAL SAMPLE, WE WERE ABLE TO DETERMNE THAT TH RE. WAS THS ROUGH ONE TO ONE RATO, ~.~ ThAT'S USEFUL ror ESTM TNG PURPOSES. T'S FAR TO SAY THAT THE TR TH COULD HAVE BEEN. AND T COULD HAVE BEEN.. BUT THE.0 'AS A REASONABLE

7-7.0 7 0 ESTMATNG BASS FOR NTELLGENCE PURPOSE~. BY MR. MURRY:, Q. F A READER OF THS DOCUMENTUNDERSTOOD THE STATEMENT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ESTABLSH RATO OF ONE TO ONE TO MEAN THAT YOU HAD ESTABLSHED AS A FACt A RATO OF ONE TO ONE, THAT READER WOULD BE N ERROR, WOULDHE NOT? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJ~CTON TO FORM. A. WOULD SAY THAT A READER LOpKNG AT AN NTELLGENCE DOCUMENT CONCERNNG OB N AN NSURGENT STUATON WHO TOOK THAT PARTCULAR NTERPRETATON WpULD BE MAKNG AN NTERPRETATON THAT THERE WAS NO REASONAB~E BASS TO MAKE. BY MR. MURRY: Q. YOU SAY N PARAGRAPH THAT THE RATO BASED ON A REVEW OF DOCUMENTS FROM OF THE V~ DSTRCTS AND OF THE VC PROVNCES WAS APPLED TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF NFANTRY-TYPE LOCAL FORCES; A. YES. DO YOU SEE THAT, SR? Q. AND T'S A FACT, S T NOT, SR, THAT YOU HAD NO DOCUMENTATON TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THS RtTO APPLED COUNTRYWDE?! MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OB~ECTON TO FORM. A. BELEVE THAT WE DD HAVE ~ASS TO BEUOVE THAT THE RATO APPLED COUNTRYWDE. AS RECALL, THE SAMPLE FROr THE PROVNCE AND,,!

, ',DSTRCT LEVELS NCLUDED ALL FOUR U.S. M~LTARY CORPS REGONS AND, YOU KNOW, A HGHER PERCENTAGE OF TH~ VC CONTROLLED AREAS THAN THE OUT OF ACTUALLY MPLES +ERE. SO FOR ESTMATNG PURPOSES, YES, DO BELEVE THAT WE HAD A REASONABLE BASS TO DO THAT. - 7 BY MR. MURRY: Q. WELL, 'M ASKNG YOU SOMETH NG THAT'S A LTTLE BT DFFERENT. YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT THAT YO HAD A REASONABLE 0 BASS, BUT 'M TRYNG TO FND OUT WHETHE YOU HAD HARD EVDENCE! i THAT THE RATO WAS THE SAr"E COUNTRYWDE. OBJECTON TO FORM., MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. AStED AND ANSWERED. A. NDEED, THE DOCUMENTS THEMS-LVES NDCATE THAT THE RATO WAS NOT THE SAME COUNTRYWDE. THE DOCUMENTS NDCATE A [' VARANCE BY DSTRCT AND BY PROVNCE. 7 BUT FOR ESTMATNG PURPOSES FOR A COUNTRYWDE NUMBER, TO COME UP WTH A RANGE, THE.0 S AN AVERAGE TO USE. WE CERTANLY NEVER MEANT TO MPLY HERE T T T WAS THE SAME ALL OVER. WE DON'T BELEVE THAT. DON'T B LEVE THAT AND NEVER 0 DD. BY MR. MURRY: Q. WHAT WERE THE RANGE OF DATE!S DURNG WHCH THE! DOCUMENTS THAT YOU REVEWED FOR THS PAPFR WERE A~THORED? A. AGAN, 'M RUNNNG NTO A, ~OU KNOW, A TME AND DETAL PR0LEM.

-,... -----... ---------------,.----------.. --.--------.. --".--,.-~-.--.. -.--.-,--.-,---,------.----f.-...,-.---~------ -- ---... l- '--,.. "t----, " 7 0 "7 0 Q. DOCUMENTS? BELEVE THEY WERE MOSTLY AND '7. WERE MOST OF,THEM ' OR MOfT OF THEM 7 A. 'M SORRY. DON'T KNOW. Q. LET ME ASK YOU THS: THE EVDENCE THAT YOU SET FORTH N THJS PAPER, WAS THS THE BEST EtDENCE YOU HAD WTH RESPECT TO THE SZE OF THE ADMNSTRATV~ SERVCE FORCES N VETNAM?! A. YES, T WAS. Q.,F YOU HAD HAD BETTER EVDE~CE' YOU WOULD HAVE USED T S THAT CORRECT? A. CERTANLY. F WE HAD HAD MfRE DOCU~ENTS FOR THE SAMPLE OR BETTER EVDENCE, THEY WOULD BE THERE. Q. NOW, YOU SAY N PARAGRAPH OF THE DOCUMEr,T THAT "LARGE NUMBERS OF STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS PROVDNG SERVCES SMLAR TO THOSE PROVDED BY ADMNSTRAT~VE SERVCES ARE SUBORDNATE TO DVSONS AND REGMENTS. THESE TROOPS ARE CARRED N THE MAN FORCE OB AND NOT UNDfR THE ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE CATEGORY."! WERE YOU REFERRNG TO THE MtCV MAN FORCE OS? A. YES. Q. YOU SAY N THE NEXr SENTENC~' "N ORDER TO COMPARE ~:' :~:'::T:: ::':: U:::: ::': ::::R :t:m::":::c: ::':~E':"N FORCE OB."!,

... "."- ",..,... - ~------- --'---~_' M ". --. " --- --~... ~,..,L~, 00 WHEN YOU SAY "N ORDER TO CO+ARE THE RATO," WHAT, WERE YOU COMPARNG THS RATO WTH? 7 0 7 MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON TO FO M A. MAYBE CAN EXPLAN. AT THE PROVNCE AND DSTRCT LEVEL WHERE WE HAD COME UP WTH A STATST CAL SAMPLE THAT ESTABLSHED A ONE TO ONE RATO BETWEEN SU PORT TROOPS, ADMNSTRATVE SUPPORT TROOPS AND MANEUVEf TROOPS, THEY ARE NOT TYPCALLY SUPPORT TROOPS WHCH ARE A PARTiCF A DVSON AND REGMENT. BUT WHAT WE'RE SAYNG BY THA~ SAMPLE S THAT EACH COMBAT SOLDER REQURES ONE OTHER SU~POR~ SOLDER. HOWEVER, AT THE HGHER LEVELS--THE FRONT, THE COSVN,!THE SUBREGON, SO ON AND SO FORTH--\'E HAVE SERVCE TROOPS THAi ARE PART OF THE MAN FORCE OB. SO THEREFORE THEY'RE DONG TH JOB THAT ADMN. SERVCES MGHT HAVE DONE F THESE TROOPS ~AD BEEN AT T\-E DSTRCT LEVEL. SO TO MAKE A PROPER ESTMAT, WE HAD TO SUBTRACT THESE,000 PEOPLE, THE SUPPORT TROOPS MAN FORCE OB, FROM nle TOTAL OB TO GET 0 PEOPLE. i HAT WERE PART OF THE, HE NUMBER OF MANEUVER WE WERE ESTABLSHNG A ONE 0 ONE PARTY BETWEEN MANEUVER AND SUPPORT. AND YOU COULD THlrK OF THE TWO SCALES OF JUSTCE WTH, YOU KNOlv, ON ONE SDE THE MANEUVER TROOPS!'ND THa OTHER THE ADMNSTRATVE. i 0 ON THE SUPPORT SDE YOU!WOULD TqEN HAVE,000 ',

0 PEOPLE THAT WERE NORMALLY A PART OF THE MAliN FORCE OB AS WELL AS ON TOP OF THAT, ADMN. SERVCE PEOPLE. BY MR. MURRY:, Q. NOW, CONTNUNG WTH PARAGRAP~, YOU PONT OUT N HERE THAT MACV HAS DENTFED,000 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS SUBORDNATE TO REGONS. AND TAKE lt THAT MEANS 7 MLTARY REGONS? PLEASE. THE WTNESS: WOULD YOU REPEA THAT QUESTON BACK, 0 (LAST QUESTON READ) A. YES, AND THNK T ALSO MEA~S SUBORDNATE TO COSVN AND THE OTHER AREAS AS WELL. BY MR. MURRY: ill 7 Q. YOU SAY, WHCH MACV HAS ALRE~DY DENTFED AS SUBORDNATE TO REGONS AND COSVN. A. OKAY. J Q. S T CORRECT WHEN YOU SAY nrjgons,. YOU ARE TALJ(HlG ABOUT THE ENEMY ADMNSTRATVE SUB,EGONS CALLED AD'ilNSTRATVE REGON? 0 A. YEAH, THE MR'S AND SUBREGONS. Q. YOU SAY THAT THERE ARE,000 ADMNSTRATVE SUPPORT TROOPS, ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROdps, THAT ARE CARRED N THE MAN FORCE MACV ORDER OF BATTLE AND WHEN YOU ADD THESE,000 TO THE,000 DENTFED BY MACV AS SUBORDNATE TO i REGO~S AND C0VN, YOU COME UP \'lth,000 SUPPORT A'JD STAFF

", 0 TROOPS OR ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS, ArD TROOPS. DO YOU SEE THAT?. A. YES, SR. MR. MASTRO: HAVE TO OBJECT TO CHARACTERZATON OF WHAT THE DOCUMENT SAYS.,000 COl-mAT MR. MURRY'S T DOESN'T SAY THERE WERE,000 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE T OOPS. BUT PLEASE 7 0 7 0 CONTNUE WTH YOUR QUESTONNG. 'VE STATfD MY OBJECTON. MR. MURRY: WELL, T SAYS THErE ARE "ADDTONAL LARGE NUMBERS OF STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS rrovdng SERVCES SMLAR TO THOSE PROVDED BY ADMNSTRATV~ SERVCES, WHCH ARE CARRED N THE MAN FORCE DB SERVCE. AND NOT UNDER ADMNSTRATVE MR. MASTRO: THAT S EXACTLY RGHT. THERE ARE,000 CARRED N THE DB, NOT ADMNSTRAT~E SERVCE TROOPS. YOU'RE DRAWNG. MR. MURRY: 'M NOT SURE WHAT THE DSTNCTON S Q. BUT THESE,000 TROOPS WHO A~ LEAST PERFORMED THE SAME FUNCTONS AS THE PEOPLE WE TROOPS CALL ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE A. LET ME GVE A CLARFYNG EXAM LE. THOSE,000 PEOPLE MGHT BE THE RD MEDCAL GROUP THA 's ATTACHED TO THE S TH VC DVSON WHCH S SUBORDNATE TO SOrE EXAMPLE. i Q. THEY PERFORM THE SAME FUNCTO~S GROUP MLTARY, FOR AS A MEDCAL...--...--~-----.---p--------~,~---------.-".--.~~-.-. --- ~,-~,~---,-----" ---r-"'----~-----" ---"- l- --''-'-"r-"'-~

' lot i> 0 :;.7 0 7 0 A. YES, SR. i Q. -- THAT WOULD BE CARRED AS ADtNSTRATVE SERVCE. AND THE ONLY DFFERENCE S THAT THS PARTCrLAR MEDCAL GROUP ATTACHED TO A DVSON? A. EXACTLY. Q. NOW, YOU SAY F YOU ADD THESE ~B,OOO STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS TO THE,000 DENTFED BY ~ACV AS SUBORDNATED TO REGONS AND COSVN, YOU COME UP WTH '0~0 SUPPORT AND STAFF TROOPS AND,000 COMBAT TROOPS? A. YES. Q. N THE NEXT SENTENCE YOU SAY, nto ACHEVE'THE ONE TO ONE RATO, WHCH WE BELEVE MORE ACCURATELY DESCRBES THE TKUE PCTURE, T S NECESSARY, TO ADD AN ADDTONAL,000 TO THE STAFF AND SUPPORT SDE OF THE RATO." NOW, SN'T T CORRECT, SR, TjAT YOU DD NOT HAVE ANY SPECFC EVDENCE N THE FORM OF CAPTU,ED DOCUMENTS OR P.O.W. NTERROGATONS THAT ESTABLSHED THA ANY ONE OF THOSE,000 PEOPLE EXSTED? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJE TON TO FORM. A. WE MAY VELL HAVE HAD CAPTURED DOCUMENTS AND P.O.W. REPORTS THAT NDCATED THAT SOME OR EVEN P SSBLY ALL THE,000 EXSTED. T'S JUST THAT T WAS NOT N A NTO THS PARTCULAR METHODOLOGY., BY MR. ~URRY: THAT COULD F T Q. WHY WAS T NOT N A FORM THAT COULD FT NTO THS S "'.-.-.--- ---- P ~--.-...--~-.----.--.-".---~_._. ~._~.~ +_.. ---~-..,...,-...-"_._.

'~ p 0.7 PARTCULAR METHODOLOGY? A. THS METHODOLOGY DEALT WTH REPORTS OF PROVNCE AND. DSTRCT LEVEL ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE STREN~TH. WE DDN'T LOOK AND SEARCH FOR ALL CAPTURED DOCUMENTS THAT :DEAL T WTH, SAY, COSVN OR MLTARY REGON ADMN. SERVCES,WHCH MGHT HAVE GVEN US NAMES OF UNTS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WERE NOT POSSBLY N THE ~\AC V OB. 0 SO WHAT 'M SAYNG S THAT THE!RE SN'T AN ABSENCE OF NFORMATON THAT THESE ADDTONAL TROOP] EXSTED. METHODOLOGY S NOT ONE WHCH GVES YOU THA THS. FURTHERMORE, HNK THE BASl OF THE ESTMATE S THAT THERE ARE CERTAN REALTES TO COMBAT WHETHER T'S THE. U.S. SDE OR THER SDE. AND WE KNEW THP.T FROM OUR OWN. EXPERENCE THAT OUR MANEUVER UNTS REQURE, FORGET THE NUMBER WE USED TO TALK ABOUT, WAS SEVEN SOLDERS on EACH COMBAT PERSON. 7 THE VETNAMESE HAD THE SAME S RT OF PROBLEM. YOU JUST CAN'T SUPPOSE THAT AT A PROVNCE AND STRCT LEVEL THERE WAS A CERTAN AMOUNT OF LOGSTCAL SUPPORT REQURED BUT THOSE 0 OTHER MANEUVER WHATEVER, THAT UNTS THAT WOULD BE OPERATNG AT COSVN LEVEL OR HAD FANCER UNFORMS, BETTEr MEDCAL CARE, BETTER TRANNG AND EVERYTHNG ELSE WOULD HAVE NE-DED HALF THE LEVEL OF ADMN. SERVCE SUPPORT. T'S JUST NOT A R ASONABLE PROPOSTON ANYMORE THAN T WOULD BE TO ASSUME THAT, F R EXAMPLE, THE MARNES NEEDED HALF THE ADMN. SERVCES OR SUPPORT THAT THE ARMY.. "". ----------._'. w_.~_.,,_._". ~_,,_. -.-"--.~-------... ----t-.,.,----.~----.. "-.-.~~.. t-~.. -"-"-'"rr~

, ' 'i» 0.7 B 0.:- 7 0 DD., Q. BUT F YOU HAD SUCH DOCUMENTS ~HAT EVDENCED THE EXSTENCE OF ANY OF THESE,000 PEOPLE THAf YOU REFERRED TO, YOU DDN'T CTE T N THS PAPER? A. THAT'S RGHT. Q. AND YOU WERE TRYNG TO PUT FOt H A. NOR DD WE EXTENSVELY SEARCH,FOR SUCH DOCUMENTS THROUGH THE ENTRE DOCUMENT DATA BASE. YOU SEE, THE TROUBLE WTH ADMN. SERVCES S YOU DON'T RUN ACROSS THEM OUT ON THE TRALS WTH RFLES. THESE ARE PEOPL.E WHO OPERAT.E r,n REAR AREAS. FOR THAT REASON, TYPCALLY OUR UNTS DON'T RUN ACROSS OR DDN'T RUN ACROSS THEM, AND WE DDN'T CAPTURE DOCUMEN S FROM THEM. AND FOR THAT REASON WE DDN'T KNOW THAT THE TH AD N. SERVCE GROUP TO COSVN EXSTED AND HAD MEN OR WHATEVER. THAT'S REALLY THE REASON. l i GUYS YOU HT, YOU FND OUT AB~UT;! HT, YOU DON'T FND OUT ABOUT. GUYS YOU DON'T Q. ~HAT EFFECT DD THE FACT THAT AT LEAST,000 STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS SUBORDNATE TO DVSON AND REGMENTS WERE CARRED N THE ran FORCE-OB HAVE ON THE V~LDTY OF YOUR ESTMATED RATO OF ONE SUPPORT TROOP FOR 0 E MANEUVER SOLDER THROUGHOUT ALL LEVELS OF THE VET CONG MLTARY ORGANZATON? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECTON TO FORM. A. NO REAL EFFECT, BELEVE. T'S JUST PEOPLE "'-.-"---. ------._._MP.~_.. "' -.-.. ---.--~.-'--------".---+..,----~-----.. -. n l-... ~... _,. _~ i

" ' r.' 0 _7 B 0..... "..' 7 B 0 PERFORMNG A SMLAR FUNCTON ADMNSTRATVELY PLACED N A DFFERENT REPORTNG STRUCTURE. BY MR. MURRY: Q. WELL, YOU SAD A MOMENT AGO TH YOU ASSUME THAT THERE'S ONE SUPPORT TROOP FOR ONE COMBAT SO AT THE PROVNCE LEVEL, LET US SAY, THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE HAT THERE ~OULD BE LESS AT THE COSVN LEVEL. A. YES. Q. NOW, FRST OF ALL, THAT P'OPOSjTON "QU"S AN ACCEPTANCE OF THE ONE TO ONE RATO AT THE P OVNCE LEVEL, DOES T NOT? A. YES. BY MR MURRY:. MR.~ASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECtON TO FORM. Q. AND ALSO YOUR OWN PAPER PONTS OUT THAT THERE WERE STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS NTEGRAL TO DVS NS AND REGMENTS SUBORDNATE TO MLTARY REGONS AT THE COSV, CORRECT? MR. MASTRO: OBJECT! ON. OBJEC ON TO FORM. A. YES. BY MR. MURRY: ' Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THE FGU!RE FOR MANEUVER TROOPS N THE MACV ORDER OF BATTLE NCLUDED MANEUVER TROOPS FROM THE COSVN LEVEL DOWN TO THE PROVNCE AND DSTRCT LEVEL? A. T WAS NOT NCLUDED THE PROVJCE AND LEVEL. THOSE WERE NCLUDED N THE OTHER S~MPLE.,, DSTRCT T "'AS JUST

" 07 PEOPLE THAT WERE AT LEVELS HGHER THAN PROVNCE AND DSTRCT. Q. NO, VAS ASKNG THE MACV ORDER OF BATTLE, WHETHER THE MACV ORDER OF BATTLE FGURE FOR MANEUVER TROOPS NCLUDED ALL MANEUVER TROOPS REGARDLESS OF WHCH LEVEL OF THE VC THEY WERE SUBORDNATE TO. HERARCHY MR. MASTRO: F HE KNOS. 7 MR. MURRY: YES. ASKED HM DD HE KNOW. B A. T'S JUST HARD TO REMEMBER SPECFC NUMBERS RGHT. HERE. COULD ONLY GUESS THAT T NCLUDED PEOPLE ABOVE THE 0 PROVNCE AND DSTRCT LEVEL. BY MR. MURRY: 7 0 Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THE MACV ORDR OF BATTLE N TS RECAPTULATON OF ENEW STRENGTH HAVNG A CATEGORY FOR MANEUVER TROOPS ABOVE, SAY, THE PROVNCE LEVEL AND ANOTHER CATEGORY CALLED MANEUVER TROOPS BELOW THE PROVNCE LEVEL, DO YOU? A. NO, SR, DON'T RECALL THAT N THE PROVNCE. MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECTON TO FORM. A. BUT T WAS POSSBLE, MR. MURRY, TO GO TO MACV AND TO GET A LSTNG OF THE UNTS THAT HERE NCLUDED AND FROM THERE, DETERMNATON COULD BE MADE AT WHCH LEVEL THEY WERE ATTACHED. BY MR. MURRY: Q. WOULD YOU CONSDER A RATO OF APPROXMATELY 70,000 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS TO APPROXMATELY 0,000 MANEUVER TROOPS A RATO THAT WAS CLOSE ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO PROVDE A REALSTC LEVEL OF SUPPORT FOR THE MANEUVER TROOPS?

T -"-- ------ -- -'-~--"------ ---- ---~-'" -" - -,,-, _----'--,,--------.. ---r-""----------.--.---,-----r--- lob MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECTON TO FORM. A. WELL, 'VE STATED HERE N e AND AGAN N MY DECLARATON THAT BELEVE THE BEST GUESS ~AS ONE TO Ol-JE. AND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER T COULD POSSBLY HAVE BEEN 70,000, 7 TO, WOULDN'T BE PREPARED TO SAY THAT T WOULD OR T WOULDN'T BECAUSE SMPLY DON'T HAVE THE EVDENCE TO MAKE THAT JUOGMENT.? BY MR. MURRY: B Q. ASKED YOU A COMPLCATED QUESTON, AND 'M GONG TO TRY TO BREAK THS DOWN FOR YOU. 0 YOU SEE BACK ON PAGE, PARAGRAPH OF THE DRAFT WORKNG PAPER, N THE FRST SENTENCE YOU SAY, "T HAS SEEMED UNREASONABLE TO US THAT THE ENEMY COULD HAVE SO FEW STAFF AND.. SUP"ORT TROOPS N RELATON TO THER MANEUVER STRENGTH." NOW, THNK YOU TESTFED THAT MACV WAS CARRYNG ABOUT 0,000 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS? A. THNK TESTFED - TO 0-. 7 Q. - TO 0-, OKAY. B AND MACV WAS CARRYNG AT THAT ME ABOUT,000 MANEUVER TROOPS; S THAT CORRECT? 0 A. 'M NOT SURE WHAT MACV WAS CARRYNG N THE WAY OF MANEUVER TROOPS AT THAT TME. ~lr. MURRY: LET ME SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT THAT HAS PREVOUSLY BEEN MARKED AND BELEVE S ALSO A JONT EXHBT. T MAY NOT BE A JONT EXHBT, BUT T S A ~OCUMENT THAT'S BEEN PREVOUSLY MARKED N THE LTGATON, AND T S DATED MAY.

, '. ' 0 T'S A MEMORANPUM FOR THE DRECTOR OF CENTRAL NTELLGENCE THROUGH THE DEPUTY DRECTOR FOR NTELLGENCE. THE SUBJECT S THE RESULTS OF COMMUNTY NEGOTArONS ON ENEMY STRENGTHS N SOUTH VETNAM. T WAS PRODUCED BY THE CENTRAL. lntellgence AGENCY AND HAS A CA DOCUMENT NO.. LET ME SHOW THS TO COUNSEL FOR.7 CBS, LET HM PERUSE T, AND THEN '0 LKE TO HAVE HM HAND T TO YOU. 0 MR. MASTRO: OFF THE RECORD. (DSCUSSON OFF THE RECORD) (RECESS) MR. MASTRO: HAVE REVEWED THS DOCUMENT, AND AM NOT SURE WHETHER T.S A JONT EXHBT OR NOT. WHY DON'T YOU CONTNUE WTH YOUR EXAMNATON, MR. MURRY. BY MR. MURRY: Q. MR. STUMPF, DO YOU RECOGNZE THE DOCUMENT DATED 7 MAY TTLED "RESULTS OF COMMUNTY NEGOTATONS ON ENEMY STRENGTH N SOUTH VETNAM" THAT HAVE PLACED N FRONT OF YOU? A. DON'T SPECFCALLY RECALL HAVNG SEEN T BEFORE. 0 Q. CAN YOU ASCERTAN FROM YOUR REVEW OF THE DOCUMENTS WHETHER T S N FACT THE REPORT ON THE APUL, ORDER OF BATTLE CONFERENCE FOR WHCH YOU PROVDED THE PAPER ON ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. THE DOCUMENT SPEAKS FOR TSELF.

r--"-- -------- -' -~- -,----- ~- ---_ " '" _~_"- - -- -'-~ -'-----------t~"""---~---.--'-"'-'~--~.'l-~ '-e'.'--"r"-.' 0 7. 7 0 7 0 A. REVEWED THE COVERNG -- THE THREE-PAGE COVERNG MEMORANDUM WHCH S A ~EMORANDUM FROM PAUL WALSH, THE DEPUTY DRECTOR OF ECONOMC RESEARCH, TO THE DRECTOR OF CENTRAL NTELL GENCE. THS MEMORANDUM DSCUSSES THE DFFERENCES BETWEEN CA AND MLTARY ORDER OF BATTLE POSTONS BY MR. MURRY: Q. T SAYS N PARAGRAPH OF THE COVERNG MEMO THAT THE CA DRAFT ASSESSMENT OF ENEMY STRENGTH~ WAS PRESENTED TO A CONFERENCE WTH REPRESENTATVES FROM DA, MACV, CNCPAC, NSA AND THE OBSERVERS FROM THE MLTARY SERVCES AND OSD CONFERENCE MEETNGS WHCH WERE HELD FROM 0 TO APR~L AND SEVERAL ADDTONAL MEETNGS WERE HELD WTH DA. DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLL~CTON AS.TO WHETHER THS DOCUMENT PERTANS TO THE ORDER O~ BATTLE CONFERENCE? A. YES, T CERTANLY PERTANS TO THAT CONFERENCE. WAS JUST NDCATNG BY MY ANSWER THAT WA$N'T -- HAD NOT REVEWED THE APPENDED CONFERENCE REPORT AN~ COULDN'T SPEAK TO vlhether THAT WAS WHAT T SEEMED TO BE. Q. NOW, F YOU NOTce ON PAGE OF THE DOCUMENT, DO YOU SEE THERE, THERE S A LSTNG OF THE MACV CNCPAC DA ESTMATE OF ENEMY COMBAT FORCES AND THE CA ESTMATE OF COMBAT FORCES AS OF MARCH? A. YE S, SR. Q. DO YOU SEE THE MACV CNCPAC D~A FGURE FOR MAN AND

LOCAL FORCES S 0,000 PERSONS TO 0,000 ~ERSONS? A. Q. YES. AND THE ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES FGURE GVEN BY MACV CNCPAC DA S,000 PERSONS TO 0,00q PERSONS? A. YES. MR. MASTRO: ~ S READNG FGURES FROM THS DOCUMENT. Q. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT MR. MURRY MR. ~URRY: NDEED.. NOW, BELEVE YOU TESTFED E~RLER AND YOU STATED 0 N YOUR PAPER, DRAFT WORKNG PAPER, AND ACC$RDNG TO YOUR AFFDAVT T WAS. THE CA POSTON THAT AT L AST,000 STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS WERE NOT CARRED N ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE BY ~~CV BUT WERE CARRED N THE MAN FORCE OB. A. YES. Q. F YOU SUBTRACT THOSE,000 FROM THE MACV ESTMATE GVEN N THE: ~\AY REPORT FOR MAN AND LOCAL FORCES, 7 BELEVE YOU COME UP WTH A FGURE OF,000 TO,000 FOR MAN AND LOCAL FORCES. AND CONVERSELY, F YOU ADD -- WOULD YOU NDCATE OR 0 STATE FOR THE RECORD "YES OR "NO." A. Q. YES, AS TO THE - TO,000. AND ALSO F YOU ADD THAT,000 FGURE TO THE MACV FGURES FOR ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE, YOU COME UP WTH, BELEVE, FGURES OF NSTEAD OF - TO 0,000, - TO:,000 S THAT CORRECT?

r ---~---- A. Q. YES. NOW, AS WE MENTONED BEFORE, yqu STARTED OFF YOUR DRAFT WORKNG PAPER WTH THE STATEMENT THAT "T HAS SEEMED UNREASONABLE TO US THAT THE ENEMY COULD HAVa SO FEW STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOP~ N RELATON TO THER MANEUVE_ STRENGTH." AND TAKE T THAT YOU WOULD FtND THE FGURE OF.7,000 TO 0,000 STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS ~ RELATON TO 0- TO 0,000 MAN AND CORRECT? LOCAL FORCE TROOPS TO BE UMREASONABLE; S THAT 0 A. Q~ YES. WHAT 'D LKE TO KNOW S: WHAT ABOUT A FGURE OF,000 STAFF AND SUPPORT TROOPS TO,000 M+N AND LOCAL FORCES? S THAT UNREASONABLE? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON TO FORM. A. AGAN, BASED ON THE EVDENCE THAT WE HAD N THE 7 DOCUMENTS, THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE UNREASONABLy LOW. BY MR. MURRY: Q. WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU U~DERSTAND 'M NOT ASKNG YOU WHAT YOUR BEST ESTHATE WAS. 'M ASKNG YOU WHETt-ER 0 A RATO OF,000 SUPPORT TROOPS TO,000 MANEUVER TROOPS S UNREASONABLE. A. YOU MEAN N A CONTEXT OF VETNAM OR - Q. YES. MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. ASKED AND ANSWERED. OBJECTON TO FORM..--,-----.--.----.-- ~-'".--.-.--.,-,.,---.-,--,.,----.--- ---"...... ----------.----- --,_. --. -- r -- --

, ' MR. MURRY: WANT TO -- A. WOULD THNK-SO, YES. NOULD THNK THAT THAT WOULD BE UNREASONABLY LOW, THAT RATO. BY MR. MURRY: Q. YOU DON'T THNK THAT,000 SU:PPORT TROOPS COULD SERVCE AND SUPPORT,000 MANEUVER TROOPS?' S A. NOT N THE MANNER N WHCH THE MAN FORCE NVA WERE SUPPORTED AND EQUPPED AND ARMORED; NO, OON'T. Q. AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE!MAN FORCE ~VA TROOPS 0 WERE SUPPORTED AND EQUPPED AND SO FORTH C~ME FROM READNG - CAPTtiRED DOCUMENTS N WHCH -- A. YES, SR, AND ALSO N ADDTON TO THE MLTARY PEOPLE SPOKE TO N VETNAM HAD TOLD ME AeOUT WHAT THESE PEOPLE HAD AND HOW MUCH AMMO THEY APPEARED TO HAV~ AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. T'S A JUDGMENT, TO BE SURE, BUT THAT S MY OPNON. Q. AND T WASN'T ONLY A QUESTON OF HOW THE NVA MAN 7 FORCE WAS SUPPLED AND SERVCED, BUT ALSO fflow UNTS DOWN TO THE VC LOCAL FORCE PLATOON WAS SERVCED AND EQJPPED? 0 A. A. BY MR. MURRY: Q. YES. MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OOJECTON TO FORM. THAT WAS A PONT OF REFERENCE FOR ME, YES, SR. AND WHEN YOU SAY SAD THAT TH~ RATO OF,000 SERVCE T~uOPS TO,000 MANEUVER TROOPS WAS NOT REASONABLE N YOUR OPNON FOR NVA SERVCE REQUREMENTS ~-

A. YES. Q. -- N ORDER TO BE ACCURATE, YOUl'D HAVE.TO ALSO TAKE o NTO ACCOUNT THE SERVCE REQUREMENTS OF UNTS ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE VC LOCAL FORCE COMPANY, WOULD YOU NOT? A. Q. TO BE SURE. COULD THE NVA AND VC MANEUVER lroops HAVE BEEN SERVCED AT A LEVEL OF,000 SUPPORT TROOPS TO,000 MANEUVER TROOPS? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJEC]ON TO FORM. 0 A. NOT WTH THE LEVEL OF COMBAT EFiFECTVENESS THEY PEMONSTRATED N VETNAM, NO, DON'T THNK SO. WE HAVE TO RECALL THAT THE NORTH VETNAMESE AND TO SOME DEGREE VET CONG HAD VERY LONG SUPPLY ~NES AND DFFCULT CONDTONS AND NSURGENT CONDTONS UNDER WHlCH TO MANTAN AN ARMY WHCH WAS FGHTNG A VERY MODERN ARMY. AND JUST THE REALTES OF THAT MAKE T SEEM -- -AKE THAT SORT OF RATO SEEH 7 MPOSSBLE TO ME. BY HR. MURRY: Q. LET ME ASK YOU THS: SN'T T A FACT THAT THE VC 0 TROOPS OPERATNG N SOUTH VETNAM WERE ABLE'TO OBTAN LARGE QUANTTES OF THER FOOD SUPPLES FROM THE ~OPULACE OF SOUTH VETNM'.? A. T WOULD TAKE ME A MNUTE TO G~VE YOU A CLEAR ANSliER TO THS QUESTON. THE ANSWER VARES "ltli TME. N THE EARLY YEARS OF THE WAR, YES, T'S TRUE. N

' AND ' THEY DD OBTAN MOST OF THER F@OD FROM THE POPULACE HOHEVER,.S THE ~AR PROGRESSED N ', '7, ', A. RELATVELY SMALLER AMOUNT WAS OBTANED FROM THE POPULACE AND CAME N FROM OUT OF COUNTRY. Q. WHY WAS THAT, SR? WHY WERE TiiEY UNABLE TO OBTAN AS MUCH OF THER FOOD FROM THE POPULACE N '7 AND ' AS THEY _7 WERE N ' AND '? A. THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS: F~ST, AGRCULTURE BECAME NCREASNGLY DSRUPTED AS THE WAR CONTNUED SECOND, 0 THESE UNTS WERE MANLY QUARTERED N BASE A~EAS THAT WERE MOUNTANOUS AND NOT AMENABLE TO RCE GROWNG AND, THEREFORE, T WAS NECESSARY TO MOVE THE RCE OVER TRALS. Q. WAS ALSO ANOTHER REASON THE N~REAS NG EXTENS ON OF ~ THE GOVERNMENT OF VETNAM CONTROL OVER THE POPULACE OF SOUTH VETNM? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJEC~ON TO FORM. 7 A. DON'T THNK THAT WAS MUCH OF A FACTOR N TERMS OF DENYNG RCE TO VC/NVA MLTARY UNTS. N THE EARLY YEARS OF THE ~AR, MY ANALYSES SHOlED 0 THAT THESE RCE TAXES VERE ABOUT EQUALLY EFFECT VE N V ETNAM GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED AREAS AS THEY WERE ~ VET CONG CONTROLLED AREAS. BY MR. MURRY: Q. THESE UNTS THAT YOU SAD WERE' LOCATED N BASE CAMPS, WERE SOME OF THEM LOCATED NEAR THE ~ORDERSOF LAOS,

,. CAMBODA AND THE DEMLTARZED ZONE? A. YES, THEY WERE. Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER MORE OR LESS THAN HALF OF HESE UNTS WERE LOCATED N LATE 7 NEAR THE BORDERS OF LAOS, CAMBODA OR THE DMZ? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON TO FORM,. OBJECTON..7 A. YOU'RE ASKNG ABOUT A VERY PARtr"CULAR TME THAT WOULD HAVE 'A DFFERENT ANSWER THAN OTHER TMES. AT THAT PARTCULAR TME PROR ~O TET, APPARENTLY 0 UNBEKNOWNST TO MANY PEOPLE N MACV, VERY LARGE NUMBERS OF NORTH VETNAMESE ARMY TROOPS WERE MOVED ACROSS THE BORDER NTO SOUTH VETNAM, AND THE MAN FORCE OB ~AS A HGHER! NUMBER THAN THE NUMBER NDCATED N THE DOCUMENT WE'RE EXAMNNG. SO THERE WOULD BE MORE N THE DMZ AREA AT THAT PARTCULAR TME. BUT THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE COURSE OF THE WAR, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE MAN FORCE UNTS N THE TAY NNH BASE 7 AREAS. BY MR. MURRY: Q. YOU SAY THE TAY NNH AREA. COULD YOU TELL US WHERE 0 TAY NNH S N RELATON TO THE BORDERS OF WAOS OR CAMBODA? A. TAY NNH S N THE LAOS-CAMBOQA-THA BORDER AREA. T'S A PROV NCE OF SOUTH V ETNAM H TH A VC AND A GOVERN~'ENT OF. VETNAM PROVNCE. Q. THESE ENEMY UNTS WERE FREE TO CROSS THE BORDER FROM SOUTH VETNAM NTO LAOS AND CAMBODA,.WERE THEY NOT? r--""--"------------- -'--~- -'----- --- ---- ~ -~~-' '- ' - '-"'--.'-'-~'-'------".---r-"' R '_'_"'_--~-'-"'-"-"

r-'---'--'-~---'-------------'--'-------"--"-"-'"-'_...."'..'.. ~-----.. ---. 7 A. Q. WTH SDME LMTATDNS, YES. THE LMTATDNS WERE MPDSED BY AND LARGE BY THE TERRAN AND NTERDCTDN BY AMERCAN FDRCESi; S THAT CCRRECT? MR. MASTRO.: DBJECTDN. A. TERRAN, B- BCMBNGS, THNGS DF THS SCRT. BUT GENERALLY THEY CDULD MDVE BACK AND FCRTH. _7 BY MR. MURRY: Q. SN'T T A FACT THAT THE VET CDNG AND NVA HAD SUPPLY FACLTES N LACS AND CAMBODA BUT ADJACENT TO. SDUTH 0. VETNAM? A. YES, THERE ~ERE SD~E. SUPPLY FCLTES N LADS AND CAMBDDA. Q. SN'T T ALSO. TRUE THAT FRDM ~ME TO. TME N 7 AND ENEMY UNTS MDVED NTO. LADS AND CAMBDDA FRDM SDUTH VETNAM N CRDER TO. UTLZE THESE SUPPLY FACLTES? MR. MASTRO.: DBJECTCN. DBJEdTCN TO. FDRM. 7 A. YES, PARTCULARLY AFTER CDMBAT TDDK PLACE. TO. REST THESE TRDDPS, THEY WCULD BE MDVED NTO. DEE~ BASED AREAS WHERE THEY CDULDN'T BE HT; HDWEVER,THESE BASE ~REAS N LADS AND 0. CAMBDDA, F THEY WERE SUBDRDNATE TO. CDSVM DR FRDNT, WDULD BE VERY CLDSE TO. THE BCRDER. AND T WCULD BEA MATTER DF GEDGRAPHY WHETHER DNE CDNSDERED THESE N SDUTH VETmAM CR SOMEWHERE ELSE. T WCULD BE HARD TO. FND THE Bo.RDER N SUCtH AREAS. THE SUPPCRT TRDDPS THAT WERE KDRE }'c,,dt:: FRDM THE ACTUAL BCRDER AREAS WERE CFTEN REFERRED TO. AS STATDNS. AND

- T - ---- ------- --~--"----~~-.---_._._.. ~_'".._.._... ~.~'_H.~ "...-...-, lb THESE STATONS WERE NOT COUNTS. BY MR. MURRY: NCLUDED N OUR ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES Q. THE UNTS THAT HAD ACCESS TO SUPPLY STATONS JUST ACROSS THE. BORDER FROM SOUTH V ETNAM N LAds AND CAMBODA, THEY' DDN'T HAVE LONG LNES OF COMMUNCATON, AS YOU PUT T, DD.7 THEY, SR? A. NOT ~HEN THEY WERE N BASE AREiAS. BUT WHEN THEY MOVED NTO MANEUVER POSTONS, WHEN THEY MQVED OUT TO ENCOUNTER 0 ALLED FORCES, THEY DD. AND THOSE PEOPLE 'HAD TO BE AVALABLE FOR THEM. Q. BUT THOUGHT YOU TESTFED-EARLER THAT AMERCAN FORCES DD NOT ENCOUNTER ADMNSTRATVE SE~VCE ELEMENTS WTH ANY FREQUENCY. A. THAT'S CORRECT. 'M JUST MAKNG A PONT THAT WHEN THE MANEUVER FORCES MOVED OUT TO ENCOUNTER :ALLED FORCES, THEY 7 WOULD NEED TO HAVE LNES OF SUPPLY AND SO qn AND SO FORTH AND BASE AREA SUPPORT BACK N THER BASE AREAS!EXTENDNG OUT TO WHERE THEY WERE OPERATNG. AND THS WOULD,REQURE 0 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS. Q. SN'T T TRUE THAT ON AVERAGE!VET CONG AND NORTH VETNMESE ~AN FORCE AND LOCAL FORCE TROOPS N 7 FOUGHT 0< AN AVERAGE OF ABOUT ONE DAY A MONTH? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJE TON TO FORM. A. 'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT RATJO 'D HAVE TO LOOK AT

" '.' WHETHER WE'RE TALKNG ABOUT JUST MANEUVER OR COMBAT. F T WAS ONE DAY A MONTH, T CERTANLY WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE THAN THE AVERAGE AMERCAN SOLDER. BY MR. MURRY: Q. F YOU ARE CORRECT THAT MORE SERVCE TROOPS ARE NEEDED TO SERVCE A FGHTNG FORCE WTH A LONG LNE OF ~ COMMUNCATON ENGAGED N COMBAT, WOULD T NOT ALSO BE CORRECT THAT SOMETHNG LKE A SERVCE FORCE SOMEWHAt SMALLER HOULD BE ALL THAT WAS NEEDED TO SERVCE A UNT THAT HAS NOT ENGAGED N 0 HEAVY COMBAT AND THAT HAD A SHORT LNE OF COMMUNCATON? A. Q. THAT'S A REASONABLE PRESUMPTON. NOW, YOU SAY.N YOUR AFFDAVT THAT THE ESTMATE. CONTANED N YOUR DRAFT WORKNG PAPER WAS A SOLD ESTMATE, BELEVE; S THAT CORRECT? A. 'LL HAVE TO CHECK MY EXACT WORDS. Q. LET ME REFER YOU TO PARAGRAPH. THE WORDS YOU 7 USED \vere na SOUND AND CONSERVATVE ESTMA'E." A. YES. THAT'S CORRECT. Q. DO YOU SEE AT THE END OF PARAGRAPH OF YOUR 0 AFFDAVT THE LAST SENTENCE WHERE YOU REFER TO "THE TENUOUS NATURE OF MUCH OF THE EVDENCE"? A. WE'RE TALKNG ABOUT PARAGRAPH N MY HORKNG PAPER? Q. N YOUR WORKNG PAPER. 'M SQRRY. AND N TALKNG ABOUT THE EVDENCE GONG NTO THS ~ ----------------.-.-~~------ ri~._.._.._.. ----------------------"-...,---------_.- n r- _"_~

~.. ~~.~,L~_.., 0 ESTMATE OF ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES YOU SAY, "BECAUSE OF THE TENUOUS NATURE OF MUCH OF THE EVDENCE." AND YOU DDN'T MENTON ANYTHN~ N THE AFFDAVT ABOUT THE EVDENCE OF THS ESTMATE BENG TENUOUS, DD YOU SR? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECtON TO FORM. A. N MY AFFDAVT DDN'T CHARACTERZE THE _7 UNDERLYNG NFORMATON AS BENG TENUOUS, BUT THNK B CHARACTERZED THE OVERALL ESTMATE AS BENG SOUND AND CONSERVATVE GVEN THE SORTS OF NFORMATON THERE WAS TO WORK 0 WTH. BY MR. MURRY: Q. AND THE. NFORMATON THERE WAS ro WORK WTH WAS NOT VERY GOOD, WAS T, SR? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECrrON TO FORM. A. THROUGHOUT THE ENTRE 0 ESTM~TNG PROCESS, ANALYSTS HAD TO WORK WTH FRAGMEN".Y EVDENCE THAT WAS OFTEN 7 TENTATVE. BUT T S POSSBLE TO \:ORK WTH FRAG~ENTARY AND TENTATVE EVDENCE AND PRODUCE SOUND AND CONSERVATVE ESTMATES. YOU NOTCE USED THE WORD "ESTMATE" HERE, NOT AN 0 ASSERTOr. OF FACT THAT THERE WERE A GVEN NUMBER OF PEOPLE. THE ESTHATE WAS EXPRESSED NA RANGE THAT WAS,000 PEOPLE WDE, WHCH S ROUGHLY A FULL THRD OF THE LOWER END OF THE ESTMATE. FGURE THAT TO MY WAY OF THNKNG THb COMMUNCATES ADEQUATELY TO A REASONABLE READER THAT WE WERE

-~".----'-.------:-------'--~~-.-"-~----~------.~---'-.--.--"-... -----~----------'-- ----.-_. L., L.,, '.'. DEALNG WTH SOMEWHAT TENUOUS EVDENCE. BY MR. MURRY: Q. BUT YOUR AFFDAVT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHNG ABOUT YOU DEALNG WTH SOMEWHAT TENUOUS EVDENCE, DOES T, SR? A. NO, T DOESN'T, BUT THERE ARE MANY OTHER THNGS THAT MY AFFDAVT DOESN'T MENTON ETHER THAT ARE N THS DRAFT _7 WORKNG PAPER. THE PURPOSE OF THE AFFDAVT WASN'T TO REPRODUCE ' EVERYTHNG, BUT TO MAKE THE MOST SALENT PONTS. Q. BUT YOU WANTED TO GVE A FAR AND ACCURATE 0 REPRESENTATON OF YOUR WORK N YOUR AFFDAVT, DD YOU NOT? A. CERTANLY. Q. AND DESPTE THAT, THE ONL), THiNG YOU SAD 'ABOUT THE QUALTY OF THE ESTMATE WAS THAT T WAS SOUND AND CONSERVATVE? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. A. YES, BELEVE THAT'S AN ACCU~ATE CHARACTERZATON OF THE ESTMATE. 7 BY MR. MURRY: Q. YOU DDN'T MENTON N THE AFFDAVT WHEN TALKNG ABOUT THS ESTMATE FROM THE NEXT CLAUSE O~ THE SENTENCE, 0 "BECAUSE OF THE GROSS ESTMATES E'~PLOYED N ARRVNG AT SOME OF THE COMPONENTS OF YOUR ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE FGURE, YOU DDN'T SAY ANYTHNG N THE AFFDAVT ABOUT USNG GROSS ESTMATES N ARRVNG AT SOME OF THE COMPONENTS, DD YOU, SR? A. NO. BUT AS 'VE EXPLANED, BELEVE THAT T'S POSSBLE TO USE GROSS ESTMATES, TENUOUS EVDENCE, FRAGMENTA~Y

. -.-.------.----... ---.. -.----.-.. -.. -... -.~... --.. --... -------.. -.--L----.---------.--.--.-----.- 0 0 '.. 7 0 NFORMATON AS SOURCE MATERAL AND PRODUCE A SOUND AND CONSERVATVE ESTMATE--WHCH S A WAY OF CHARACTERZNG THE OVERALL FNSHED PRODUCT--PROVDED THAT'S EX[RESSED N A RANGE WHCH REFLECTS THE NATURE OF THE EVDENCE NfLUDED. Q. COULD YOU EXPLAN HOW -- A. DD ATTACH TO MY DEPOSTON T~S WORKNG PAPER :::::0:::: ~::~:::.::::E:::O:::T:::s:':::r:~~E:~E :::"~:E:OU'VE CERTANLY WOULD BE AVALABLE TO THE READER WHO BOTHERED TO READ THE ATTACH'.ENT. Q.' DO YOU THNK THAT'S MAKNG THE MATTER SUFFCENTLY CLEAR F YOU ATTACH THE NFORMATON AND SOMEBODY WANTS TO READ T, THEY CAN READ T? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJEC ON TO FORM. A. DO, GVEN THE 'AY THAT THE ESTMP.TE \'AS EXPRESSED AS A RANGE, A BROAD RANGE. F MY RANGE HAD BEEN FROM 7,000 TO 7,00, MGHT BE PREPARED TO CONCEDE YOU HP.T PONT, MR. MURRY. BY MR. MURRY: Q. YOU SAY N THS PARAGRAPH THAT BECAUSE OF THS TENUOUS NATURE OF MUCH OF THE EVDENCE AND jhe GROSS ESTMATES EMPLOYED N ARRVNG AT SOME COMPONENTS OF OUR FGURE OF B,00 ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE, YOU EXPRESS THE FGRE AS A RANGE OF 7,000 TO 00,000. A. YES

.. Q. ~ANTED TO ASK YOU WHY YOU TH~UGHT WHAT YOU DESCRBE AS TENUOUS EVDENCE AND GROSS ESTATES JUSTFED PUTTNG N A FGURE THAT WAS ALSO HGHER THAN THE,000. NOT ONLY LOWER THAN THE,000, BJT MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJECtON TO FORM. A. THE MAN REASON FOR GONG WTH THE POSSBLTY OF A 7 HGHER FGURE WAS THAT WAS OF THE OPNON THAT MANY OF THE NVA UNTS, MAN FORCE UNTS, HAD VERY LARGE ADM N. SERVCE GROUPS ATTACHED TO THEM. 0 MANY OF THESE UNTS HAD FARLY COMPLEX WEAPONRY. THEY HAD VAROUS TYPES OF HEAVY EXPLOSVES: LARGE, VERY LARGE '. 7 'AND HEAVY MORTARS, ROCKET LAUNCHERS, MD SO ON AND SO FORTH. OFTEN FARLY SOPHSTCATED COMrUHCATONS EQUPMENT AND FACLTES WERE FOUND TO BE NVOLVED HEtE. THNGS TEND TO SUGGEST, YOU KNOW, RELATONSHP. BY ~R. THAT WOULD BE THE REASON.! THESE KND OF HEAVER TrAN A ONE TO ONE MURRY:! Q. YOU KNEW N, DD YOU NOT, THAT MACV DD NOT COUNT N TS SOUTH VETNAM ORDER OF BATTLE DMNSTRATVE 0 SERVCE UNTS THAT WERE LOCATED OUTSDE OF HE BORDERS OF SOUTH VETNM; SN'T THAT TRUE? A. F THE:Y ~ERE HAVE BEEN NCLUDED. BUT THEY WOULD BE NCLUDED. RELATONSHP, MR. MURRY. FAR OUTSDE THE B RDERS, THEY WOULDN'T F TH.,,,. flo" TO TH. BORDERS, T WAS A ~A TTER OF REPORTNG

. Q. TURNNG TO PARAGRAPH OF YOUR DRAFT WORKNG PAPER, YOU SAY, AND QUOTE, "THE QUALTY OF ADMN STRATVE SERVCE.7 0 PERSONNEL VARES CONSDERABLY WTHN GVEN fnts' AND SOME PERSONNEL OCCASONALLY LSTED N DOCUMENTS- COOKS AND WASHERWOMEN FOR EXAMPLE--MAY BE UNWORTHY OF BENG CARRED N THE MLTARY OB." LET ME ASK YOU, SR: eooks AND WASHERWOMEN DON'T BELONG BATTLE? DO N AYOMUlHALlllTVAERAyNYORDDOERUBTOFTHAT A. GUESS WE HAVE SORT OF A DOUB~E NEGATVE THERE. BASCALLY THNK THAT, YOU KNOW, OF BATTLE N MOST COOKS BELONr N A "'.LTARY ORDER NSTANCES WHEN THEY'RE FULL-TME COOKS FOR MLTARY GROUPS. MEAN, WE SURE PUT THEM N THE U.S. ARMY. 7 0 AND WHEN THEY'RE FULL-TME LAUNDRY SERVCE PERSONNEL, THEY BELONG N/ TOO. THNK THE BEST GUDE S WHAT THE ENE~Y DOES. BUT THS S AN AREA HERE SHOULD TELL YOU TH.AJT WE WERE SNEVlHAT SENSTVE BECAUSE WE'D BEEN CRTCZED BY MACV FOR NCLUDNG COOKS AND WASHERVOMEN. THE~ HAD SAD THAT lour METHODOLOGY NCLUDED THESE PEOPLE AND THEREFORE T WASj'T GOOD. AND GUESS "'ACV HANTED TO EXCLUDE THE COOKS AND ~ASHE,wor~EN FOR SO,.\E REASON THAT'S DFFCULT TO FATHOM. COULD SEE A BASS FOR T F THEY WERE PART-TME OR SOMETHNG, BUT Q. YOU FND T HARD TO UNDER STAN WHY MACV DDN'T WANT TO NCLUDE COOKS AND WASHERWOMEN N TS M TARY ORDER OF

-.--~-----.-,-~-------.--.------.-.-".---,.--.-.. ---.--~'--------".---~~--'.----"'.'--"-'r-'.'--'-',..7 0 BATTLE? A. YES, F THESE ARE FULL-TME SEFVCEPEOPLE, JUST AS THEY'RE NCLUDED N OUR UNTS. Q. YOU MENTONED N YOUR DRAFT WO KNG PAPER THAT MACV HAD, AS YOU PUT T, SCALED SERVCE PERSONNEL. DO YOU RECALL THAT?! A. YES. Q. WHEN DD YOU FRST DSCUSS W~H ANYONE THS QUESTON OF, AS YOU PUT T, SCALNG DOWN OF ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE NUMBERS?,':,~ 7 Q. WHAT DD MR. ADAMS TELL YOU ABOUT THS ~ATTER? A. MR. ADAMS RELATED A CONVERSATON AND EXCHANGE HE HAD HAD WTH A MACV OB ANALYST WHO HAD TOL HM OF THESE MARKDOHNS Ar,D S/\T DOWN ~TH MR. ADAMS AND EMONSTRATED N A TYPCAL DOCUMENT HOW THE DSCOUNTS HAD BEEN APPLED. 0 Q. DD YOU EVER TALK TO ANY PERSNS FROM MACV ABOUT THS MATTER? A. CAN'T SPECFCALLY RECALL. :' Q. WAS MR. ADAMS THE SOURCE OF Y UR ASSERTON THAT THERE S NO BASS FOR VHAT ~,-,U'VE CALLED T E SCALNG DOWN? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJE TON TO FORM.

,..7 0 " 7 0 A. DRECTLY AND NDRECTLY. RECrALL A DOCUMENT OR SEVERAL DOCUMENTS THAT HAD HANDWRTNG ON T EM THAT NDCATED WHAT THS SCALNG DOvlN HAD BEEN. EXAMNED THESE DOCUMENTS AND, COULD FND NO REASONABLE BASS TO SCALE THEM DOWN. BY MR. ~\URRY: Q. WHERE DD YOU EXAMNE THESE DOFUMENTS? A. T WOULD HAVE BEEN AT CA HEADQUARTERS. Q. WHEN DD YOU EXAMNE THESE DOC~MENTS? A. CAN RECALL -- CAN JUSTR,dLL Y VAGUELY RECALL HAVNG SEEN THEM AND DSCUSSED THEM WTH SAM ~HEN. MEMORY vias REFRESHED BY Or,E OF THE DOCUMEN~S ASA PART OF THS LTGATON. THAT CORRECT? AND MY' THAT WAS DSCOVERED Q. SO YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THS DOCUMENT N ; S A. YES, OR THEREABOUTS. Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW T CAME TO BE THAT YOU HERE N POSSESSON OF THS DOCUMENT? A. N? Q. THAT'S CORRECT. A. CAN'T SPECFCALLY RECALL, OTHER THAN T WAS AS A PAR T OF AN EXC~ANGE \- TH MR. ADAMS. Q. WHEN MR. ADA",S TOLD YOU ABOUT THS NCDENT N WHCH HE HAD HANDED A DOCUMENT TO SOMEONE FFLATED WTH MAtV AND THEY HAD SHOWN HM HOW WHAT YOU CALLED THE SCALNG DOWN TOOK......_.... - --- "_, ~_ _".._,,_. H'~ ------.~--t~"""---------...-.~--~-.,-..,-,._,,_"_..

.,-...-.--...--------.----.-----.--.--------..---..-.-".--..--..------------l-~---------.--.---.--..--j 7 PLACE, DD MR. ADAMS THAT HE HAD HANDED THE DOCUMENT' TO? NDCATE TO YOU WHO THS NDVDUAL WAS A. 'D BE WLLNG TO BET THAT HE PD, BUT DON'T REHEMBER WHO T WAS. _7 0 Q. SN'T T TRUE THAT MR. ADAMS ~OLD YOU, N SUBSTANCE, THE NDVD.UAL TO WHOM HE HAD HNDED THE DOCUMENT HAD FRANKLY AND OPENLY MADE THESE ADJUSTMENTS THAT YOU'VE REFERRED TO? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. OBJE TON TO FORM. A. SMPLY CAN'T RECALL WHETHER HE TOLD ME THAT THESE WERE FRANK AND OPEN REDUCTONS OR NOT. BU, YOU KNOW, THE BOTTOM LNE ON THE REDUCTONS S THAT THEY WERE ARBTRARY, THAT THERE WAS NO BASS N READNG THROUGH THE OCUMENT OR ANALYZNG T TO CONCLUDE THAT VAROUS GROUPS SHOULDE CUT BY HALF OR TWO-THRDS OR THREE-QUARTERS. BY MR. MURRY: 7 Q. MR. ADA~lS TOLD YOU T WAS ARB TRARY; S THAT CORRECT? A. T WAS MR. ADAMS' OPNON AND MY OWN OPNON UPON 0 READNG THE DOCUMENT. Q. BUT MR. ADAMS DlqN'T TELL YOU THAT THE REPRESENTATVE FROM MACV THOUGHT T WAS AR TRARY, DD HE? A. Q. CAN'T RECALL THAT. YOU DON'T RECALL THAT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER? A DON'T RECALL WHETHER MR. AD MS SAD THAT THE MhCV

.-... --... ------.----------.--.---------.-----.-.. ---.---.---------.---L--.....,,. PERSON SAD T WAS ARBTRARY OR WHETHER HE CbNCLUDED THAT T WAS ARBTRARY NDEPENDENTLY. YOU KNOW, THS WAS 7 YEARS AGO. Q. SN'T T ALSO CORRECT THAT YOU DD NOT PERSONALLY MAKE AN EFFORT TO CONTACT A MACV REPRESENTA VE AND FND OUT WHAT THE BASS FOR THE CHANGES N THE NUMBERS WAS? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. O~JEC~ON TO FORM. 7. A. T'S TRUE. GVEN THE DFFCUL Y JUST EXPERENCED GETTNG AROUND WTH MACV, DDN'T EXPECT T AT SUCH AN NQURY WOULD HAVE PRODUCED MUCH PRODUCT. 0. ' BY MR. MURRY: PRO~UCT Q. WELL, T HAD PRODUCED SOME WTH MR. ADAMS, HAD T NOT? A OF THE ORDER, 'fee BELEVE THS EXCHANGE TOOK OF BATTLE CONFERENCES AS JUS AT A -- SOHE ONE VAGUELY RECALL. YOU KNOW, HAD OR HAD SEEN THS DOCUMENT H 0 BEEN MARKED DOWN AND HAD NDCATED THAT THERE HAD BEEN REDUC ONS. 7 DDN'T SEE THE PURPOSE OF N URNG FURTHER WTH MACV WHERE N EVERY CASE THEY HAD MADE REDU T ONS AND FRANKLY, WOULDN'T ANTCPATE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE OLD ME THE ANSWER. 0 AS 'VE EXPLANED BEFORE, WHAT YOU SEE HERE AS THE ATTACHMENT TO MY AFFDAVT S A MULTPAGE D SCRPTON OF A METHODOLOGY. HERE T GOES ON FOR SEVEN PAG S. THERE WERE OTHER BACKUP DOCUME~TS FOR THS THAT DOCUMENTED EACH DOCUMENT N THE DATA BASE A~D SO ON. T WAS THERE FOR ANYBODY TO EXAMNE AND UNDERSTANDAND CRTCZE AS YOU

, _ 7 0... '. ", 7 0 AND HAVE BEEN DONG' THS AFTERNOON, HACV: BUT LET'S CONTRAST THAT TO HAi WAS GONG ON VTH SMPLY A LST OF ORGANZATONS THAT they'd DENTFED AT SOME PONT AND HRTTEN DOHN SOME STRENGTH NUMBERS FOR AND THEN GONE THROUGH AND WHACKED OFF SOME OF THOSE ' REASON OR ANOTHER THAT WAS NEVER CLEAR. UMBERS FOR ONE YOU'RE LOOKNG AT A REASONABLE METHODOLOGY THAT'S DOCUMENTABLE COMPARED TO A PARTAL LAUNDRY LST OF MLTARY UNTS. Q. YOU DON'T KNOH, DO YOU, SR, ~HAT BACKUP MACV HAD FOR THE PECE OF PAPER THAT MR. ADAMS 'SHOW D YOU WTH THESE NUMBERS ON T, DO YOU? A. AS RECALL FROM DSCUSSONS ~TH MR. ADAMS, THERE WASN'T ANY BACKUP. i Q. BUT THAT'S W~~T MR. ADAMS TOL YOU, CORRECT? A. CORRECT. Q. YOU DON'T KNOW YOURSELF WHETH R THERE WAS ANY BACKUP OR NOT, DO YOU? A. DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE WA ANY BACKUP OR HHETHER THAT BACKUP WAS REASONABLE. BUT G VEN THE NATURE OF THE DOCUMENT, ONE WOULD NOT EXPECT THAT THERE OULD BE ANY BACKUP -- AT LEAST THE DOCUMENT REMEMBER SEENG. Q. DDN'T YOU TESTFY THAT MR. A AMS HAD WRTTEN DOWN ON A PECE OF PAPER CERTAN UNTS, GVEN TO A MACV REPRESENTATVE, AND THE MACV REPRESEHATV SHO'ED HO'! HE VOUiLD

'_ _..N._._"..~~_.- ---.~.- "'------ ----t~..,.,---.~-----...-.-".. l-."---0-_'_" _,._.._". ". 0 :. SCALE THESE FGURES DOWN? OBJECT ON. MR. MASTRO; NO, THAT' NOT W'+ HE TES Tl FE 0 TO. MR. MURRY; HE CAN TELL ME F THAT'S NOT WHAT HE.7 0. 7 TESTFED TO. YOU CA~ OBJECT. MR. MASTRO; AM OBJECTNG, MR. MURRY. THERE S NO NEED TO RASE YOUR VOCE. MR. MURRY; THERE S NO NEED T~ TELL HM WHAT HE TESTFED TO. F THAT'S NOT WHAT HE TESTFED TO, HE CAN SAY THAT. Q. F MSSTATED WHAT YOU' SAD, SR, PLEASE, APOLOGZEl AND PUT ON THE RECORD YOUR BEST RECOLLECTON. A. WHAT RECALL SEENG ON PAPER JAS A CAPTURED DOCUMENT. 'M GUESSNG T WAS A DSTRCT L+EL ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE GROUP. 'M AGAN REACHNG BACK N lemory AND THNKNG T "HGHT EVEN HAVE BEEN LONG DAT DSTRCT, ll'ut AGAN, 'M NOT SURE OF THAT. 'M GVNG YOU EVERYTHNG J E~EMBER. AND T HAD A LST OF DFFERENT SERVCE PEOPLE THAT 0 WERE PART OF THE ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE GRO OUT BY FUNCTON. FOR EXAMPLE, MEDCS --T T BROKE T,EM ARE JUST EXAMPLES--ARMORERS,, AND SO ON AND SO FOR H BY CATEGORYl TRANNG CADRES,. AND N PENCL NEXT TO DOCUMENT WERE OTHER NUMBERS, LOWER UP BY MACV N TS ORDER OF BATTLE.! THESE NU~BERS N THE CAPTUR(D NUMBERS HAT HAD BEE~ P r C KED THEY WE E JUST ANNOTATONS

.,.7 0.... 7 0 THAT HAD BEEN MADE DOVN THS DOCUMENT. TH! WAS AN EXAMPLE OF THE DSCOUNTNG OF ADMNST~ATVE SERVCES,ERSONNEL. BY MR. MURRY: Q. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE!ERE THE ENEMY ENTTES REFLECTED N THS PECE OF PAPER, HS CAPTURED DOCUMENT OR WHATEVER, ADMNSTRATVE SERVC ENTTES THAT WERE KNOWN TO MACV? A. T WAS ONE ADMNSTRATVE SERV[CE ENTTY WTH SUBGROUPS THAT PERFORMED FUNCTONS. WHETHEr OR NOT THAT ENTTY was KNOWN TO MACV BEFORE THE CAPTURE OF THr DOCUMENT, CAN'T SAY. THEY MGHT HAVE HAD ANOTHER DOCUMENT. BUT AT THS ONE PONT N TME WE HAD A STRENGTH REPORT THAT SAD, YOU KNOW, SUCH AND SUCH ADMN. SERVCE BATTALON HAS SO MANY PEOPLE TOTAL, AND BREAKS THEt \ OUT. AND THEN SOMEBODY HAS GONE THROUGH WTH A RED PENCL AND CUT THEM BACK AND STUCK THE CUT-BACK NUMBER N THE OB. Q. DD YOU EVER ATTEMPT TO ASCER AN YOURSELF WHETHER THE FGURES N THE REPORT -- THE CAPTURED NEMY DOCUMENT AS WRTTEN OR THE REVSED MACV FGURES WERE M RE ACCURATE FOR THAT PARTCULAR ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE ELEMENT? A. DD NOT, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE DOCUMENT TSELF WAS EVDENCE THAT THS GROUP N THS STRENGTH EPORT HAD THAT MANY PEOPLE. AND T WAS CUSTOMARY DURNG THE W R WHEN YOU HAD A STRENGTH REPORT TO ACCEPT THAT NUMBER AND WRTE T DOWN, NOT i

--,-..--~---..-.--'-----.-"---.---...----.-------.. ~-".---.~-.-... -.. ~~.--...---.-,-----"----t-..,...----"-----.-.-.-.'~""-"'-"'-"-".".- -"'- ". _7 0. i DSCOUNT T. Q. EVEN F YOU HAD CONFLCTNG EVtDENCE ON THE STRENGTH OF THE UNT? A. AGAN, CAN'T SPEAK TO EVERY 'ASE BECAUSE DDN'T ST POWN AT THE MACV ANALYSTS' SDE WHLE THEY DD THESE THNGS. BUT NORMALLY A STRENGTH REPORT, AN OFFCAL REPORT FOR A UNT, WAS ACCEPTED AS BENG THE BEST SOURCE OF N ORMATON ON WHAT THE STRENGTH OF THAT UNT WAS. THERE ~AS NOT NORMALLY ANOTHER SOURCE OF NFORMATON THAT ~ias A MORE VALUABLE SOURCE. BY WAY OF EXPLANATON, LET'S +~., PERHAPS YOU MGHT HAVE A PRSONER FROM THAT UNT, AND T WAS AT THE SAME TME THE STRENGTH REPORT EXSTED. YOU COULD POTENT PRSONER HOW HANY PEOPLE WERE N HS UNT. LLY ASK THAT THAT SOUNDS GREAT N OUR CONTE T. BUT WTH THE VETNAMESE, WE FOUND THAT VERY OFTEN THEY H D NO DEA HOW MANY 7 PEOPLE WERE N THER UNT. THEY WOULD HAVE A COHPANY AND THEY WOULD TELL US THAT THERE WERE 00 PEOPLE THE COMPANY, YOU KNOW, THNGS WHCH MADE ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE, 0 T WAS JUST THAT NUMBERS SUCH is THAT WEREN'T THER TH NG. THS. SO OOC.MENTS 'E'E NO'MALLY CO'SOE'[O TME lest SOU'CE O' Q. WEREN'T THESE DOCUMENTS ALSO PREPARED BY THESE S~ME VET CONG FOR WHOM, AS YOU PUT T, NUHBERS WEREN'T THER THNG? A. WELL, THEY WERE PREPARED BY MRE EDUCATED, MORE

,', '-J.' SENOR, OFTEN ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES-TYPE ADRE WHOSE THNG WAS TO DO,HAT, WHEREAS THE FOOT SOLDERS, T W SN'T THER THNG. WANTED TO ~ENTlON ONE OTHER ONT TO COMPLETE AN ANSWER FOR YOU, MR. MURRY. YOU ASKED ME HETHER OR NOT AD GONE AND CHECKED THE DSCOUNTNG WTH MACV. AND GOT TO PA TALLY RESPOND THAT.7 NO, HADN'T NDEPENDENTLY CHECKED WTH MAC. BUT AS YOU CAN SEE HERE N THS WORKNG PAPER THAT WAS GV N TO MACV, WE HAD MENTONED THS, THESE MARKDOWNS. AND CANT RECALL ANY 0 OBJECTON FROM MACV AT THE TME TO T OR DE~ALS THAT THEY HAD DONE THS. Q. WHAT DD THE REPRESENTATVES Of THE CENTRAL,NTELLGENCE AGENCY SAY ABOUT THESE MARKDOW~S, THE CONFERENCE? AS YOU PUT T, AT. 7 A. WE CTED T AS ONE OF THE REAS~NS WHY THE MACV ADMNSTRATVE SERVCES ORDER OF BATTLE WAS TOO LOW. Q. YOU SAra EARLER TODAY THAT--: BELEVE HAVE YOUR LANGUAGE HERE--MACV'S ADMNSTRATVE SERVC~ NUMBER NCLUDED ~OO 0 FEW PEOPLE FOR THE RATO THAT WAS KNOWN TO ~XST BETWEEN ADMNSTRATVE SERVCE TROOPS AND MANEUVER TROOPS. SN'T T A FACT, SR, THAT THE~E WASN'T A RATO THAT WAS "KNOWN" TO EXST, BUT THERE WAS ON~Y AN ESTMATE? MR. MASTRO: OBJECTON. A. F SAD "KNOW," SHOULD COR~ECT MYSELF., CERTANLY DON'T WANT TO PORTEND THAT. T'Si AN ESTMATE,

",,, CLEARL Y. BY MR. MURRY: Q. LET ME ASK YOU TO TURN TO PARAGRAPH OF YOUR AFFDAVT. DO YOU SEE THE LAST SENTENCE TH~RE WHERE YOU SAY THAT "GRAHAM," MEANNG COLONEL DANEL O. GRAHAM, "COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ARGUNG N GOOD FATH, GVEN.THE EVDENCE CONTRADCTNG HS J POSTON," YOU SAY. DO YOU SEE THAT, SR?. A. YES, DO. Q. LET ME SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT THA HAS BEEN MARKED AS 0 JONT EXHBT. \'E HAVE REFERRED TO THS THROUGH.THE COURSE OF THS LTGATON AS THE CNCPAC MACV DsseNT TO THE CA ORDER OF BATTLE ANALYSS, SOUTH VETNAM. MR. MASTRO: SPEAKNG FROM MEMORY NOW, AS MR. MURRY KNOWS, \~E HAVE HAD SOME PROBLE~S N THE PAST WTH DESGNATONS OF JONT EXHBTS. MR. MURRY ALSO KNOWS THSRE WERE A NUMBER OF DOCUMENTS DESGNATED BY PLANTFF AS JONT EXHBTS N 7 CONNECTON WTH THE OPPOSTON PAPERS WHCH PLANTFF FLED WTH THE COURT N OPPOSTON TO DEFENDANTS' MOTQN FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT WHCH WERE NOT AT THAT PONT N TME--AND DO NOT 0 BELEVE AT THS PONT N TME--AND HAVE YETTa BE ACCEPTED AS JONT EXHBTS. DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THS S SUCH A DOCU~ENT. AND FROM MEMORY CANNOT SAY NOW WHETHER T S AN ACCEPTED JONT EXHBT OR NOT. S THERE A PARTCULAR PAGE OF THE DOCUMENT THAT YOU

', WANT THE WTNESS TO READ, R. MURRY? MR. MURRY: YES. WOULD LKE HM TO READ WHAT S MARKED N THS BOOK WHCH S THE APPENDX B TO PLANTFF'S 'OPPOSTON TO DEFENDANTS' MOTON FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT AS PAGE B. THERE "S A PARAGRAPH VTH A LOWER CASE B DSCUSSNG.A!DMNSTRATVE 7 SERVCE FORCES. WLL REPRESENT TO THE WTNESS THAT THS DOCUMENT S A TRUE PHOTOCOPY OF A REPORT FLED BY MACV AND CNCPAC AFTER 0 THE ORDER OF BATTLE CONFERENCE AT WHCH THE WTNESS PRESENTED HS ESTMATE OF ADMNSTRATVE SER~CES. 'D LKE THE WTNESS FRST OF ALL TO READ THE PARAGRAPH TO HMSELF, AND THEN WANT TO ASK HM JUST A COUPLE "OF QUESTONS ABOUT T. MR. MASTRO: THE WTNESS S FRSE TO READ AS MUCH OR AS LTTLE OF THAT DOCUMENT AS HE FEELS. 7 MR. MURRY: ABSOLUTELY. READ AS MUCH OF THE DOCUMENT AS YOU WANT. 'D APPRECATE T F YOU AT LEAST READ "THE PARAGRAPtl. 0 MR. MASTRO: CANNOT AS WE ST HERE TODAY VERFY WHETHER OR NOT THAT S A TRUE COpy OF THE COMPLETE DOCUMENT. AS MR. MURRY KNOWS, MANY OF THE DOCUMENTS NCLUDED N THS APPENDX WERE EXCERPTS. MR. ~URRY: WLL REPRESENT TO YOU THAT THAT S THE COMPLETE REPORT BY MACV CNCPAC.