. STATE OF LLNOS ) NDEX ) SS: WTNESS EXAMNATON COUNTY OF C 0'0 K ) FATHER EDWARD SCHMDT N THE CRCUT COURT OF COOK COUNTY LLNOS BY MR. PEARLMAN t' COUNTY OEPARTMENT. LAW DVSON 'j JOHN DOE # ) ' Plantff ) VS. ) No. 0 L " THE CHCAGO PROVNCE OF THE ) SOCETY OF JESUS } ) Oefendant ) The dscovery deposton of FATHER EDWARD EXHBTS SCHJ)T taken n the above enttled cause before NUMBER MARKED FOR D : Ezabeth L. Vela a notary publc of Cook County 0 Exhbt lnos on the th day of July 00 at the tme S : of : a.m. at 0 West Madson Street Chcago S&S j. llnos pursuant to Notce.. 0 (Proceedngs concluded at : p.m.) A S Reported by: Elzabeth L. Vela CSR 0 t lcense No: 0OO0 S S j g S S 0 ; " ' \. '.\ ) APPEARANCES: (Wtness sworn.)! KERNS FROST & PEARLMAN LLC by FATHER EDWARD SCHMDT MR. MARC PEARLMAN and called as a wtness heren havng been frst duly MR. MCHAEL BROOKS sworn was examned and testfed as follows: 0 West Madson Street Sute 0 EXAMNATON Chcago L 00 BY MR. PEARLMAN: () -0 Q. Good mornng Father Schmdt. :; " : Representng the Plantff S A. Good mornng. '; Q. My name s Marc Pearlman. 'm an attorney 0 QUERREY & HARROW LTD. by 0 for the plantffs n ths case. There are several ] MR. ROBERT HUEBSCH ' plantffs. thnk you know that. West Jackson Boulevard Sute 00 Can you just state and spell your mme for Chcago L 00 the record? () 0- A. My name s Edward Schmdt S-c-h-rn--d-t. :l -and- Q. And sr your current poston s? ' LAW OFFCES OF McCARTHY & TOOMEY by A. s Provncal or Provncal Superor of \ MR. TMOTHY TOOMEY the Chcago Provnce of the Socety of Jesus. West Touhy Sute Q. And does that make you the -- for lack of Lncolnwood L 0 a better term the head person wthn the Chcago 0 () -000 0 Provnce? Representng the Defendant. Q. And Father Schmdt have you been deposed tt before? 'C;. A. Once. McCorkl e Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00 (Pages to ) EXHBT 0
A. don't know. marked as Exhbt. ' Q. So how do you know that you provded them 'm showng you what's been marked as wth what they asked for? Exhbt. t's a letter from you to A. Because trust my attorney. Father McGure dated February th 00. Have you Q. As you st here today do you have any seen ths document before? dea what the Jesuts shared wth the authortes n Wsconsn? O. And you authored ths document? A. No. g Q. t could be that they ddn't provde any g O. Okay. And why were you sendng McGure 0 nformaton regardng the or so names we ju'st 0 ths letter? dscussed correct? A. don't recall the specfc motvaton for MR. HUEBSCH: Objecton. t calls for t. speculaton. Anythng s possble. But f you can O. t states that 'm wrtng to remnd you answer t go ahead. of the lelter that Father Rchard Baumann sent to THE WTNESS: don't know what they asked for. you on September rd 00. trust that we provded them wth what they asked. Pont on that letler states that you are for. to be n daly contact wth Father Gschwend my BY MR. PEARLMAN: Provnce Delegate as to such matters at tmes to Q. Okay. Have you ever spoken to Phl Koss be establshed by Father Gschwend. f you are 0 the dstrct attorney n Wsconsn? 0 unable to keep such schedule then please let A. don't recall. don't recall speakng Father Gschwend know of a substtute tme. wth hm. s t your recollecton that McGure (Whereupon Exhbt S was wasn't followlng the drectve to be n daly marked for dentfcaton.) conlect wth Father Gschwend? BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. f Mr. Koss asked the Jesuts for Q. Okay. And other than wrtng hm ths nformaton that wasn't voluntarly provded would letter tellng hlrn he needed to do that dd you do that meet your expectaton? anythng else? MR. HUEBSCH: Objecton. There can be legal A. don't recall. reasons why documenletlon wasn't provded. There's Q. Okay. n ths trne frame February 00 no foundaton that he would know those legal what were the Jesuts dong to montor reasons. Father McGure? BY MR. PEARLMAN: A. Beyond leavng that to the local superor 0 Q. Let me back up. Your expectaton was 0 Father George Lane don't know. that - your expectaton as Provncal was that the ' Q. Well what was your expectaton of what Jesuts provded the authortes n Wsconsn what Father Lane was supposed to do as - you're the they asked for? Provncal. ' What was your expectaton of what Q. That was your expectaton? ' Father Lane was supposed to do? A. don't recall. Q. And f the Jesuts ddn't do that -- Q. As of 00 thnk we've establshed that A. Provded t was legal. you had had a chance at ths pont n tme to O. And f the Jesuts ddn't do that that revew the fle to know the varous names we've 0 would be aganst your expectatons? 0 talked about. A. t would be aganst my expectatons.. A. Uh-huh. Q. Would that concern you? ' Q. Dd you provde Father Lane wth the ' nfornnatlon - all of the nformaton regardng Q. Okay. 'm gong to show you what we've McGure that you knew? McCorkle Court Reporters nc Chcago llnos () -00 (Pages to )
A. Everythng no. Q. Do you -- what dd you tell hm? A. What the restrctons were. Q. You ddn't tell hm why he had restrctons? A. No. We would not have gven hm vctms' names. Q. Would you tell hm that there mght have been a dozen or so -- a dozen or more vctms? 0 A. We - he -- don't know that there were a dozen or more vctms. MR. TOOMEY: Yeah. BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. We went through -- MR. BROOKS: We can read t back. BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. -- a bunch of names rght? A. Yeah. Q. Dd you gve hm an dea of the number of 0 vctms? A. have no recollecton. Q. As Provncal would t change what you felt your responsblty -- what your responsblty was whether there was vctm or f! 0. 0 A. He was -- well. we told hm to make the weekly vst to the offce to call Father Gschwend everyday. Q. So beleve ths was referenced n one of the' earler notes. He was left to self-montor hmself correct? To obey the drectves correct? ' l A. Father Lane would have been aware of the restrctons on hm also by then.! Q. But not of the detals of why?.] ) : Uld not be aware of those correct? Q. Correct? Yes? Q. Okay. And snce the Jesuts only telll people on a need-to-know bass the others n the] communty wouldn't know that he was on restrcton' or why correct? MR. HUEBSCH: You mean communty n whch McGure resded? BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. Wthn the Jesuts other than the lst of j people that you prevously dentfed as needng to """"_=-_""""=-"""..";;; """" """_;;j - 0 vctms? know no one else would know correct? A. vctm s horrble. A. They wouldn't know what the restrctons Q. Okay. So t wouldn't change anythng? were.! l A. don't know. The fact that he had -- you know that Q. By 00 -- February of 00 were you as these accusatons have corne n and that we were Provncal concerned that McGure mght be a sexual takng them serously they would certanly know predator? that and that he would be under -- that would lead A. don't know that would have used that to restrctons of course. category. was -- would have been concerned Q. You're sayng they would know generally 0 about hs actvtes yes.. 0 that the Jesuts take these knd of allegatons Q. You say you wouldn't pck that word. Let serously and that the Jesuts were takng care of me -- by February of 00. were you concerned that t? McGure was a rsk to young people? A. Uh-huh. Yes. A. certanly knew he had been a rsk. ' Q. Wthout knowng about McGure or any Q. What do you mean by that? ' specfcs about hs stuaton? A. Because there was the record of hs abuse. A. Wthout knowng specfcs yes. Q. Okay. And dd you have a concern that he Q. n order to properly montor McGure and mght be a rsk to other young people from that day make sure he wasn't a danger to young people dd forward? t occur to you that maybe more people needed to 0 A. We had hm on these restrctons for that 0 know about hs restrctons and hs ssues wth reason. young people? Q. Okay. And the restrctons - agan my A. don't know what occurred to me. queston s other than tellng hm not to do these (Whereupon Exhbt S0 was thngs what else dd you do? marked for dentfcaton.) 0: (Pages to 0) McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00
askng you whether as the Provncal for the MR. HUEBSCH: Mechancally what was he dong? Provnce whether you felt that. THE WTNESS: Mechancally what steps he was A. don't know. takng? don't recall. Q. You understood that Father Muller was BY MR. PEARLMAN: concerned that he wasn't cooperatng wth the O. You ddn t gve hm any drecton n that polce correct? regard? A. Who's he? A. don't recall. Q. Hmself. sn't that what he's expressng O. Were you expectng that he would be here feel lke 'm helpng hde Don from the callng wtnesses or anybody that mght have 0 law? 0 nformaton to fnd out what they knew? A. He has an uncomfortable feelng that he A. was expectng that we would that ndrectly abetted Don n avodng contact wth a Father Gschwend would get to the bottom of what was legtmate polce nvestgaton. That's what he gong on yes. says. Q. As Provncal were you expectng that Q. feel as though helped an accused lawyers lke myself or law enforcement would get to prest hde from the law. That's what he says the bottom of those allegatons or were you rght? expectng to fnd out for yourself? A. beleve at ths pont s the frst that Q. But you ddn't feel that way? You ddn't law enforcement came nto t. So that was not n 0 feel lke you were helpng 0 our awareness. A. don't know. Q. No. says 'm concerned that George Lane Q. You ddn't feel lke you were helpng an and both sad truthfully to the offcer who accused prest hde from the law? vsted us on Tuesday that Don s out for most of A. don't recall what felt.. the day every day and that we and that we don't " Q. Okay. You say you made no judgment know where he s or how to reach hm when he s regardng hs gult or nnocence at ths pont n out. Do you see that? tme. A. do. As the Provncal what have you done to Q. And George Lane s the Superor rght? nvestgate the allegatons $0 that you can make a a determnaton of hs gult or nnocence? Q. Ths was not your expectaton that A. The allegatons that were contaned n the George Lane would not know where he was or how to complants by C and B s that what you're askng reach hm correct? about? A. That he would was expectng that 0 Q. Any of the allegatons. You were aware of 0 there would be a level of montorng where he was lots of allegatons by that tme correct? yes. A. Okay. Q. And n fact there wasn't as outlned n Q. Okay. What had you done to satsfy ' ths memo? yourself regardng Don McGure's gult or A. As Paul Muller says. nnocence? Q. And what dd you do about that? A. had Father Gschwend nvestgatng t. A. don't recall. Q. What was your understandng of what he was Q. Well do you recall whether you dd dong? anythng? A. That he was tryng to get to the truth. A. don't recall. 0 Q. What was your understandng of what he was 0 Q. Okay. t strkes me that n the sprtt of dong? the Dallas Charter there s the expectaton there MR. HUEBSCH: Do you understand hs queston? would be some sort of approprate supervson for thnk he's prests who are suspended from mnstry. THE WTNESS: You mean The vstng offcer mght have concluded 0 McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00 0 (Pages to 0)
0 Q that the Jesuts are not supervsng Don. Do you see that? A. do. Q. Dd you share that concern? A. don't recall. Q. Okay. He's rasng farly sgnfcant serous thngs -" Q. - Father Muller sn't he? Q. Worth consderaton you would agree? Q. And he doesn't have very much nformaton does he? A. No. Q. But you would agree that he's askng all the rght questons sn't he? MR. HUEBSCH: n retrospect at ths pont or then? Don't answer t untl we get some tme frame. MR. PEARLMAN: Okay. MR. HUEBSCH: What's- BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. Then. He was askng legtmate good wth ths memo? MR. HUEBSCH: t's been answered - asked and answered several tmes. Answer t agan. THE WTNESS: don't recall specfcally how! reacted to ths. BY MR. PEARLMAN: 0 0. Q. No.. Wth some frequency Don leaves the house n clercal attre. Do you see that? A. do. Q. That's a volaton of the charter correct? A. don't know -- Q. beleve earler you testfed - A. -- at ths pont. Q. beleve earler n the deposton you testfed that your understandng of the charter was that you're not supposed to be dressed publcly as a prest correct? A. 'm not sure when that came nto effect though. Q. Okay. So you don't know whether that was true or not? A. No. Q. Dd you look nto t? 0 0 questons wasn't he? Q. Dd you ask yourself the same questons when you were readng ths and sayng -- and thnk that maybe you should address them? A. don't recall. Q. Oka'y. The vstng offcer mght have concluded the Jesuts are not supervsng Don. t seems to me that prudence would dctate settng up at least the appearance of approprate 0 supervson of Don. Do you see that? A. do. Q. Agan let me just ask a general queston. ' Was ths memo alarmng to you? A. don't recall my reacton to t. Q. 'm tryng to get a feel Father that we agrae that ths s very very sgnfcant _. Q. - nformaton? ;0 Q. Okay. And understand that you don't necessarlly recall your reacton n any specfc sense but n a general sense you don't recall whether you took any acton at all n connecton McCorkle Court Reporters nc Chcago llnos () -00 A. don't recall. Q. Dd you ever look nto t? Q. When -- dd you ever tell Don McGure don't dress as a prest? A. beleve so. Q. When? A. don't recall. Q. Why dd you tell hm that? A. To brng us nto conformty wth what was expected. Q. Bywhom? A. The Dallas Charter. Q. Whch went nto effect n 00 correct? A. don't know. Q. Okay. t s' my understandng.- well you were aware that there was a Dallas Charter? Q. And you see t's beng referenced n ths; s-mal? Q. So by 00 you were aware the Dallas j Charter was n effect?! A. can tell you today when t came nto (Pages to ) ".
effect when t receved the approval from Rome. A. beleve he was there for at least part Q. Okay. f we assume that the Dallas of t j Charter went nto effect n 00 you would agree Q. Was Father Gschwenq as your delegate on wth me that McGure wearng clercal attre was a sex abuse aware of the fact that Father McGure was t volaton n 00 not supposed to be wearng clercal garb?.! A. f t was n effect n 00 yes. A. You asked me to speculate and would l Q. At any tme pror - well at some pont speculate yes.. dd you make yourself aware of whether the Dallas Q. Okay. Well dd you ever tell hm hey! Charter requred that prests wth allegatons of the Dallas Charter he can't wear clercal garb? 0 sex abuse would not wear clercal garb? 0 A Father Gschwend would have been more aware " A. Dd ever make myself aware of that? of those thngs than would so -- X Q. Well dd you ever go look thnk you ' Q. Okay. Have you ever dscussed wth sad you don't - Father Gschwend why McGure was allowed to wear A. Yes yes yes. clercal garb at hs tral n Wsconsn? Q. And you concluded that they weren't ' A. Why he was allowed to as opposed to -- ) supposed to be wearng clercal garb? Q. Do you know whether Father Gschwend ever :f sad to McGure don't wear your clercal garb n l Q. Okay. You just don't know when you dd Wsconsn? that? A. don't know. '; 0 A. Rght.! 0 MR. HUEBSCH: Are you through wth that exhbt " Q. So n 00 Father McGure appeared n for the moment? court n Wsconsn n tral n clercal garb MR. PEARLMAN: Yeah. j. correct? ' MR. HUEBSCH: Okay. want to take a break. MR. HUEBSCH: Objecton. thnk there's been MR. PEARLMAN: Far enough..\ no foundaton that he was there. (A lunch break was taken from BY MR. PEARLMAN: : p.m. to : p.m.)! Q. Are you aware of that? As you st here (Whereupon Exhbt S was 't today are you aware that he showed up n court marked for dentfcaton.) J wth clercal garb? BY MR. PEARLMAN: " tl A. beleve 've seen a photo of hm yes. Q. Father 'm gong to show you what we've Q. Okay. And as you st here today you know marked as Deposton Exhbt. that that was a volaton of the Dallas Charter? Ths s a letter from May of 00 to you from Father Gschwend. Have you seen ths document 0 Q. And as the Provncal dd you ever tell 0 before? hm not to wear hs clercal garb n court? A. n court? Q. Okay. t reads Dear Ed t concerns me Q. n Wsconsn. that once agan by hs own decsve behavor and A. don't thnk was ever that specfc. aganst the explct drecton of the Provncal Q. Dd you ever tell hm to not wear hs Father McGure avods accountablty and clercal garb n publc? supervson. A. beleve so. He nether checks n wth the delegate as Q. Pror to hs tral n Wsconsn? nstructed nor does he supply hs local superor A. don't thnk so. wth the schedule of hs destnatons and 0 Q. You don't thnk so? Why not? 0 actvtes. Do you see that? A. He knew the rules. He was supposed to A. da. follow them. Q. Okay. Do you recall dscussng ths wth Q. Are you aware of whether Father Gschwend Father Gschwend? was at hs crmnal proceedngs n Wsconsn? A. No. McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00 (Pages to )
STATE OF LLNOS ) ) SS: COUNTY OF COO K ) N THE CRCUT COURT OF COOK COUNTY LLNOS COUNTY DEPARTMENT LAW OVSON JOHN DOE # ) Plantff ) < vs. ) No. 0 L THE CHCAGO PROVNCE OF THE ) SOCETY OF JESUS ) Defendant. ) The contnued'dscoyery deposton of FATHER EDWARD SCHMDT taken n the above snttled cause before Elzabeth L. Vela. a notary publc of Cook County. llnos on the th dy of August 00 at 'the tme of : am at 0 West Madson Street Chcago llnos pursuant to Notce. (Proceedngs concluded at : pm) Reported by: Elzabeth L Vela CSR Lcense No.: 0-00$0 NDEX WTNESS EXAMNATON FATHER EDWARD SCHMDT BY MR. PEARLMAN 0 '0 EXHBT ' NUMBER MARKED FOR D Exhbt 0 0 S 0 S 0 S ' 0 : 0 0 APPEARANCES: (Wtness sworn.) KERNS FROST & PEARLMAN LLC by FATHER EDWARD SCHMDT MR. MARC PEARLMAN and called as a wtness heren havng been frst duly MR. MCHAEL BROOKS sworn was examned and testfed as follows: 0 West Madson Street Sute 0 EXAMNATON Chcago L 00 BY MR. PEARLMAN: () -0 Q. Good mornng Father Schmdt. Representng the Plantff A. Good mornng. Q. You realze ths s a contnuaton of your QUERREY & HARROW LTD. by 0 deposton that we took a few weeks back correct? MR. ROBERT HUEBSCH A. Yes do. West Jackson Boulevard Sute 00 Q. And have you had a chance to revew the Chcago L 00 transcrpt of your frst day of testmony? () 0-. A. No haven't. -and- Q. Okay. beleve when we left off we were LAW OFFCES OF McCARTHY & TOOMEY by just talkng about the crmnal tral n Wsconsn. MR. TMOTHY TOOMEY A. Okay. West Touhy Sute Q. And what nformaton was shared wth the Lncolnwood L 0 dstrct attorney Phlp Koss there. () -000 0 You're aware that there's also another Representng the Defendant. crmnal proceedng nvolvng McGure n the Federal Court n llnos are you not? A. Rght. Yes. ' Q. Okay. And are you aware of the documents 0 McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00 (Pages to 0)
beleve Father George Lane was there for. some of t but ddn't send hm wth the purpose of montorng. Q. So you ddn't nstruct anybody -- you ddn't tell anybody want you to go to ths tral watch what's gong on and tell me because need to know that as the Provncal of the Chcago Provnce? A. No ddn'\. 0 Q. Dd you thnk about dong that? 0 A. don't recall. Q. And thnk lkewse you sad at the crmnal tral n the llnos proceedng you! ddn't attend any of that? A. No ddn't. Q. And dd you nstruct any Jesut to be there on behalf of the Provnce to watch what was gong on? A. dd not nstruct anyone to be there to 0 watch what was gong on no. 0 Q. And why not? A. t ddn't occur to me. Q. And n terms of the sentencng as dstnct from hs tral you dd not attend hs sentencng? dressed as a prest? Do you recall that? A. Not specfcally no. Q. Ths was Exhbt we had showed you last tme Father. f you would go to Page. Ths s a letter from n July of -- July th 00. Do you see n the -- about three-quarters of the way down t says he s allowed to wear a collar queston mark? He s facng crmnal charges n Wsconsn and s appearng n court wearng hs collar. Do you see that? A. see t. Q. And t says does ths conflct wth the USCCB Charter? Do you see that? A. do. Q. Do you know what the USCCB charter s? s that what's referred to - A. Unted States Conference of Catholc Bshops. Q. That's the Dallas Charter he's talkng about correct? A. beleve. Q. Okay. And you' sad you guys follow that Dallas Charter?. A. No ddn'\.. Q. And you ddn't -- you ddn't ask any Jesut to attend hs sentencng on behalf of the Provnce? A. No ddn't. Q. And were you aware that hs vctms and ther famles were makng statements at hs sentencng? A. Beforehand don't beleve was aware. 0 knew t had happened after t happened. 0 Q. No one told you that the vctms and ther famles would be speakng? A. don't recall that anyone told me that. Q. beleve we dscussed brefly the fact that at hs crmnal proceedng n Wsconsn Father McGure was dressed n hs collar? mean he was dressed as a prest correct? A. beleve so. Q. And you were aware of that? 0 A. don't know whether was aware of that 0 specfc fact. don't know. mean saw pctures later. Q. Well do you recall that last tme we looked at a letter from where he sad he's. McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00 Q. And thnk we were able to establsh that. that charter was n place approxmately n 00? A. f we -- Q. f you're - A. Yeah. Q. All rght. So -- and you know ths s July of 00? A. And yes. Q. McGure's crmnal tral n Wsconsn was n 00 rght the begnnng of 00? A. Okay. Q. Rght? A. don't know. Q. Okay. Dd you do anythng to see f he was wearng hs collar n court? Dd you nvestgate whether n fact that was occurrng? A. No. Q. Why not? A. ddn't expect hm to comply wth what we told hm anyhow. Q. So you ddn't -- f he was wearng hs collar n court t was a volaton of the Dallas (Pages to )
Charter correct? A. Okay. Yes. Q. Yes you agree? Q. He was not supposed to be dressng as a prest any longer correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. n addton b ' weren't others reportng back to you tellng you that he 0 was dressng as a pres that he was wearng hs clercal garb? A. don't recall specfcally. Q. Okay. But you ddn't do anythng to nvestgate t because you ddn't antcpate that he would lsten anyway? A. 'm not sure that's my whole reason but -- Q. What other reasons? A. don't know. Q. Okay. thnk also n ths letter he 0 references the buttons people were wearng support Father McGure? A. Okay. Yes. Q. Were you aware that there were other Jesut prests at Father McGure's tral supportng hm and wearng these buttons? A. No 'm not aware of any of that. Q. Well he's wrtng that here rght? He's statng -- A. He says there were people there relgous personnel. He doesn't say Jesuts. Q. Okay. Dd you do anythng to see whether there were Jesuts who were wearng buttons sayng support Father McGure durng the court 0 proceedng n Wsconsn? A. dd not. Q. And why not? A. t ddn't occur to me. (Whereupon Exhbt S0 was marked for dentfcaton.) BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. Father 'm handng you what's been marked as Exhbt 0 for your deposton. T-'- '0 "0 Auqust th 00 letter from 0 you tof? A. UKay. Q. Do you know wh s? A. Probaton Offcer State of Wsconsn. Q. Okay. And ths s after McGure's 0 0. 0 '! 0 convcton correct? A. beleve so. Q. And had you corresponded wth Mr. pror to ths letter do you know? A. don't remember. Q. Okay. Well know you sad you weren't at the crmnal tral. After he was convcted dd you become more nvolved n dealngs wth the State of Wsconsn as t relates to McGure? A. Well ths ndcates that dd n terms of the probaton offcer n terms of where he would resde yes. Q. Well just more generally 'm askng you rrespectve of the document after hs convcton dd you have a -- dd you become more nvolved n montorng the stuaton? A. No. don't recall. Q. Okay. f we can look at the -- do you recall authorng ths letter? Q. Okay. The second paragraph says because of Father Donald McGure's relgous status am ultmately responsble for hs resdence and well-beng. Do you see that? A. do. Q. And that's your -- that's the case wth all of the Jesuts rght? Q. All of your members? Q. n the next paragraph t says would lke to be able to move Donald McGure to our Jesut health care faolty whch s n Clarkston Mchgan. t s called -- A. Colombere. Q. Colornblere Center. And n fact there s j a sherff's offce at the other end of the buldng whch s very large. would best be able to care for hs ' health and well-beng there. Unless he s lvng there cannot provde even mnmal supervson '. let alone care for hs health needs..; 0 When you say unless he's there you cannot j provde even mnmal supervson what dd you l mean? A. That n any of our standard resdences McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago.nos () -00 there's nobody who would check people n and out.!!." "". U."'N "'"''''''''''''....u("". c."-'_ '" '''_'-''" "._"".. " "".""".".. -<".*";-<_""... "< '''''''"'"'O''"''''''''''''''.'''"'' (Pages to ) l ;.j. j
0 0 Q. You're tryng to move McGure from llnos to Mchgan? Q. That's the purpose of ths letter? Q. And s your pont that n llnos you cannot even provde even mnmal supervson of McGure? Q. Okay. And that was the case pror to August of 00 or dd somethng change? A. Pror to 00 he was lvng at -- don't recall the sequence -- the exact dates when he went to the hosptal n Waukegan. And then he was under supervson of Wsconsn for qute a bt of that tme and don't remember that sequence of events. Q. Let me ask the queston dfferently. Between the tme when McGure returned from Calforna through the tme of hs convcton hs prmary resdence was n llnos? Q. And s t your testmony that n any of those resdences n llnos t was not possble. 0. ' 0 convcton by the tme wrote ths letter. By then there were hgher standards from the Dallas ' Charter and so forth. Q. But people had come forward n 0 correct? A. ddn't know about that untl t went publc. Q. You knew of that when you started revewng the fles? A. knew about that from the press conferences ether n August or September of 00.. Q. So you personally ddn't know s your pont? MR. HUEBSCH: 'm sorry? BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. The Jesuts _. you personally ddn't know? A. Rght. Q. The Jesuts knew? A. Not all -- mean some authortes may have known somethng. don't know exactly what they knew but yes. Q. Well we've looked at those documents? A. Rght. Yeah somebody knew that there were allegatons rght. 0 0. to provde even mnmal supervson of hm? A. t was becomng more evdent that he needed more supervson than we could provde. When say mnmal mean mnmal by the standards that they would expect someone under convcton. Q. And was t your vew that he needed more supervson after he was convcted than before he was convcted? A. don't recall. Q. Sr would you agree wth me that between as early as 0 and through 00 there were numerous allegatons regardng McGure's nteractons wth young people correct? A. 0? Q. Yes. A. don't know of anythng that old but n the '0s yes. Q. n the '0s. Okay. And why s t that you beleved he needed more supervson n 00 than he dd n 00? A. Because by now we had vctms who had come to us who had testfed n court. By then he was under a crmnal. 0 0 Q. Okay. And by the tme you became the Provncal you knew -- or shortly thereafter when you revewed the McGure fle you knew about the allegaton correct? A. know that name. don't know when became aware of an allegaton from that ndvdual. Q. you knew about that? A. Agan; don't know when became aware of that name. Q. Okay. So n 00 when you became Provncal dd t occur to you that you could not provde even mnmal supervson of McGure n llnos and that he requred supervson? A. He was n.- sad ths before. n 00 he was moved out of Canslus House down to Clark Street because we thought we could montor hm beuer. t ddn't And then the house fell down and we had to move hm out to the Woodlawn resdence where he was alone a lot of the tme. Q. And n 00 n fact that e mall that we revewed from the young Jesut detaled the fact that he was never around? (Pages to ) McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00
" Q. No one was supervsng hm? Q..\ Dd you thnk about those thngs pror to hs convctons? Q. So n 00 dd you consder movng hm A. don't recall. and sendng hm somewhere where he could be Q. Dd t concern you whether McGure pror properly supervsed? to hs convcton would be n the presence of chdren? Q. And what dd you do? ' A. We couldn't care for hs health n the Q. And what dd you do about that other than "j. facltes that were avalable. hs restrctons? Strke that. 0 Q. n 00? 0 Other than tell hm he couldn't be what dd you do? Q. So what dd you do? ' A. don't recall. A. What dd we do? Q. You don't recall that? Q. To better supervse hm. " A. No. "j A. don't know. Q. You would agree wth me that pror to hs (Whereupon Exhbt S was convcton the Jesuts had a lot of nformaton marked for dentfoaton.) regardng McGure? j " BY MR. PEARLMAN: 'l Q. 'm gong to show you What's been marked Q. Would you agree that t was more mportant 0 as Exhbt. 0 that he be montored before hs convcton when the )) Ths s an October 0th 00 letter from ' State wasn't watchng hm than after? you to Judge Carlson. Have you seen ths document A. don't beleve thought that way. before? (Whereupon Exhbt S was beleve wrote t. marked for dentfcaton.) Q. Okay. The last sentence of the frst BY MR. PEARLMAN: : % paragraph agan t states sad can provde O. Sr we're handng you what's been marked nothng n llnos that would provde n quotes as Deposton Exhbt No.. any supervson f that s expected closed quotes Ths s a September th 00 letter from " correct? you to addressed to Dear Jesut Famly and Frends. Do you recall ths letter? Q. Okay. And agan n October of 00 was 'j t your vew that you could not provde any O. Okay. And do you know who ths ultmately } supervson for Donald McGure n the state of went out to?. 0 llnos? 0 don't mean specfcally but who are the A Yes. Dear Jesut Famly and Frends? : Q. Okay. And n the next paragraph the last A. Specfcally they're people who were \ sentence says Donald McGure's attorney proposes a ' assocated wth us who support our mssons who house n Evanston llnos. ' are blood relatves our personal famles. Donald McGure would be alone there most A lot of people are nterested n our ".; of the day. t s also close to a publc park and actvtes and we keep n contact wth them. beach. Do you see that? Q. Okay. At the end of that frst paragraph 'l A. do. the last sentence says he the he s referrng to Q. And those were concerns of yours? Donald McGure was completely removed from 0 '0 publc _. from prestly mnstry n the summer of O. Agan my queston s why ddn't why 00. Do you see that? weren't you askng yourself these same questons A. do. pror to hs convcton? O. And s that when he couldn't get the A don't know credentals from the Chcago Archdocese correct? """...... _"" ''''''''''''_''_'''''"''''''''''''' ''''W' "'''<.;"""o""""... '>"''>-=''''''' '''' '''''''''''" '''.V "" - ''''""G''''. 0 ""o'm McCorkle Court Reporters nc Chcago no; s () -00 (Pages to 0) $... : "!
0 0 Q. Dd the Jesuts allow hm to contnue dong any mnstry wthn the Jesut communty after that? A. That would have been allowed under these norms yes. Under the norms from the bshops and so forth he would have been allowed to celebrate the mass n prvate n a Jesut resdence wth no outsders present. Q. That's permtted under the norms. My queston s dd you allow hm to do that? A. allowed hm to do what the norms permtted yes. Q. Well let me ask the queston dfferently. f you had concerns about hm and you beleved -- f at that tme you beleved he was a sexual abuser you could have prevented hm from sayng mass even wthn the Jesut communty correct? A. No. couldn't have. Q. What would you have had to do n order to do that? A. Have hm removed from the presthood. Q. All rght. And you ddn't do that? 0 j ' " 0 A. My best recollecton s that began dscussons of that n the summer of 00 but untll -- yes. That's my best recollecton. Q. And when dd you frst - presume you have to wlte a letter to Rome? A. t's -- MR. HUEBSCH: Eventually or as the frst thng n 00? BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. To get hm removed from the -- thnk you outlned that the Superor General -- presume the Superor General s n Rome? Q. Okay. And you have to send hm a petton or a letter to start that process? A. t's not a smple letter. t would be a letter wth documentaton. Q. Okay. And when dd you start puttng together that letter and the documentaton? And just -- know you sad you started dscussng t. understand that. That's 00. When dd you decde that that was gong to be an acton you as the Provncal were gong to take? 0 0 A. At that pont no. Q. When dd you do that? A. The decree came down -- we receved t n January 00. Q. Okay. And before a decree comes down presume you as the Provncal have to start a process? Q. What s that -- what do you have to do? A. You prepare the documentaton. You petton frst of all. for hs removal from the Socety of Jesus whch the Superor General can grant but that's condtonal and ts gong then to the Vatcan for ther endorsement of what you have done. The Socety of Jesus of tself cannot remove hm from the presthood. That's done by the Vatcen. So they go hand n hand but the Socety of Jesus removes hm from the socety but as sad fs condtonal wth the Vatcan gong forward wth the process. Q. And can you tell me when you frst as the Provncal started the process gong of havng hm removed from the Socety? 0 0 A. My best recollecton s that n the summer of 00 began nvestgatng how do do ths how do accomplsh ths. Q. Okay. And tell me about that nvestgaton. Who were you talkng wth? What dd you do? A. consulted Canon lawyers. Q. Who dd you consult? A. There were at least three. Q. Do you recall ther names? A. Two of them do not. The thrd one s a Jesut. Q. Okay. What's hs name? THE WTNESS: Do need to answer ths? Ths s gettng close to where thnk t shoud be prvleged. MR. HUEBSCH: Well thnk he can ask the name yes. THE WTNESS: Okay. MR. HUEBSCH: The conference and the conduct between the two of you s prvleged but you can w THE WTNESS: The name s Robert Gesnger. G-e--s--n-g-e-r. ; (Pages to ) McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00
MR. BROOKS: Well 'm not so sure agree wth as a Jesut.. your asserton that t's prvleged. n fact f you can just walk me through what you Judge Lawrence has ruled to the opposte but we'll dd or -- ncludng what you nstructed others to ; handle those as we go along. You have to see where do whether t be delegatng some of that to other ;t t t's gong. Jesuts. MR. HUEBSCH: can tell you he's not gong to A. Agan don't recall specfc dates when ask any -- f you ask hm - steps were taken. MR. BROOKS: Judge Lawrence - " B 'll tell you a pont at whch t was MR. HUEBSCH: Mke let me make the objecton clear that we could proceed. And that was after 0 0 0 and then you can argue. 0 the sworn testmony of the two men n Wsconsn. { MR. BROOKS: 'm sorry. apologze. We had sworn testmony at that pont that MR. HUEBSCH: All 'm gong to say s we're was compellng. After that was able to proceed gong to clam that s prvleged under these wthout dffculty.! crcumstances rrespectve of what Judge Lawrence Q. Dd you seek to get sworn testmony of '\ has sad to ths pont. anyone pror to ther testmony n Wsconsn? He's not gong to answer t. You can feel A. No. free to ask the questons to protect the record.. Q. Was gettng sworn testmony an mportant ; MR. PEARLMAN: Sure. part of the process? Was t necessary? j MR. HUEBSCH: certanly apprecate that but A. Absolutely necessary no but t was very 0 'm gong to nstruct you not to answer any 0 helpful. j questons between you and -- any questons that ask Q. Okay. And beleve you testfed on your the conduct or the' conference between you and. frst day of deposton by the tme the Wsconsn Gesnger. tral came along you had formed an opnon n your.\ own mnd about what you beleved regardng the t : BY MR. PEARLMAN: truth of the allegatons regardng Donald McGure? Q. Now just so you understand just for the record because there's been objectons and Q. Okay. And knowng what you beleved dd! comments before a queston was even asked now 'm you seek to -- dd you seek to get sworn testmony gong to ask the queston Just so t's on the of people that could help n removng hm? record okay?. A. No. MR. HUEBSCH: That's far. Q. And why not? MR. BROOKS: Sorry. A. don't recall why not. BY MR. PEARLMAN: Q. Okay. Do you know when you frst sent 0 Q. Can you please tell me the dscusson that.0 whatever paperwork was necessary to Rome to the you had wth your - wth Father -- Gesnger? Superor General to get McGure removed? A. Gesnger. A. t would have been beleve n the Q. Regardng the removal process wth summer of 00. McGure. Q. September of 00? MR. HUEBSCH: My nstructon to you s to not A. Summer. answer that queston. Q. Summer? Okay. September s n the BY MR. PEARLMAN: summer guess but -- 'm sorry. msheard you. Q. Are you gong to follow - ' And what took so long from the tme of hs A. wlll follow counsel's advce. convcton -- whch was February of 00 rght? 0 Q. Okay. Far enough. Whatever dscusson A. 'll trust you on that. ; took place you're not gong to testfy to that. Q. okay. What took -- why dd t take a year When dd you - want to know the process and a half? from the tme you talked to those lawyers and dd A. don't know. don't know. that nvestgaton through the tme he was removed Q. Okay. n the frst sentence of the next.. "'<"'.""''''''''M'".'' '".. -." '''.. ";'-'''.""... ""'.' "."""'" "..."""'''''''''-'''''''''. "'''''''''''''''''"'''''- "''''"''*.-'....."."" *.. w" ""'N"_"_. '""""';';"_"""F""'"_ ""... (Pages to ) McCorkle Court Reporters nc Chcago llnos () -00 ' j 0
paragraph on Exhbt t says durng ths tme know the truth about McGure? undoubtedly we had all experenced a range of A. t's -- meant what sad here they emotons shame confuson anger regret doubt. have the rght to know that they can n fact Are those all feelngs that you were trust us that we're dong the rght thng. experencng at that tme? Q. And as you - by September of 00 had you had the opportunty to reflect about the way Q. And maybe f you can just tell me when the Jesuts had handled the McGure stuaton from you say shame what shame wefe you feelng? ordnaton onward? A. f a Jesut dd these thngs 0 collectvely that brngs shame on us. 0 Q. Okay. And dd you beleve that mstakes Q. ' And what about regret? What were your were made? regrets? A. beleve that my predecessors acted A. Regrets? don't know specfcally but ' accordng to ther best knowledge at the tme. n regret that anybody let hm nto the order n the retrospect we wsh thngs had been done frst pace. dfferently. Q. Dd you have regrets that he wasn't Q. Lke what could have been done stopped sooner? dfferently do you thnk? A. Sure. A. 'll speak not about McGure personally Q. Dd you have regrets regardng the level but the more general stuaton s that early 0 of supervson that was -- that he had? Strke!0 psychologcal treatment programs thought that that. Strke that. t's a poor queston. somebody could be cured of these thngs. Dd you have regrets regardng the -- By the -- by 00 we knew that that strke that. wasn't so. We had better knowledge by then. The next paragraph says as the stores n Q. But n your reflecton n revewng the the meda outlets have appeared t would not be fle McGure wasn't complant wth the surprsng f you had questons about how we psychologcal treatment he was recevng. was he? handled varous stuatons and demands. A. don't know. Dd you have anythng n partcular n Q. Well you revewed -- you had many-- mnd when you wrote that? there were letters where you were -- strke that. A. don't recall. The documentaton between Father Gschwend Q. Were you concerned that when the meda McGure you would become nvolved n those reports regardng the -- regardng McGure and the communcatons. They were about McGure's Jesuts handlng of McGure came out that you mght noncomplance correct? 0 lose support from your supporters? 0 A. 'll trust you on that. A. Defntely yes. Q Well don't trust me. Q. Fnancal support? A. don't recall what was n these letters. A. Among other thngs. Q. Well you were the Provncal. Do you Q. And then t says and all of us recall generally that McGure was a noncomplant personally our famles our colleagues and person? mnstry have the rght to know that they can n fact trust us that we are dong the rght thng Q. Okay. And do you recall that he wouldn't Do you see that? comply wth hs aftercare? A. do.! A. don remember the aftercare. 0 Q. Okay. And what dd you mean by that? 0 Q. And then n the next paragraph the thrd A. That we are tryng to do the best we can lne down do you see where t says second comma to do rght by ths stuaton. we reached out quckly? Q. And when you say have the rght to know dd you beleve your supporters had the rght to Q. And have contnued to reach out n 0 '... """-"." '""..........""." "."""."0"""' "';"''''''-' """"''''"'''''_M';'>'«'''''' ;''... -'-'''''''='"'''''''''''''''-.''''''' McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos ().00 (Pages to )
0 0 pastoral care and healng to the young men who brought the complant to our attenton. Do you see that? A. do. Q. Okay. And what's your understandng of that? How dd you reach out to these young men? A. n January 00 we receved a new complant. Should say the name? Q. You can say the name. A. Ths s. We went to hm mmedately wth - tryng to start a healng process. Q. Okay. ' _ came to you correct? A. By phone yes. Q. He -- but hs name was a name the Jesuts were aware of pror to hm comng to you? A. beleve so. There was materal about hs adopton or -- Q. Hs guardanshp? A. Hs guardanshp yes. Q. When he was years old? There was speculaton that McGure mght be hs legal guardan when he was a -year-old boy? A. beleve so yes. 0.. 0 wounds f people don't want contact. Q. Any other reasons? A. don't recall any. Q. Do you recall after McGure's convcton n Wsconsn you were quoted sayng that you were prayng for the vctms of McGure -- Q. -- correct? And do you recall sayng that you looked forward that you wanted to speak to them? A. don't recall sayng that. beleve mght have sad that yes. Q. Okay. Dd you do anythng to reach out to those two ndvduals and make contact wth them? A. No. Q. Why not? A. fgured f they wanted to talk to me they would ntate t. Q. So you were watng for them to make the contact? Q. Okay. Why wouldn't you ntate the contact to call them and apologze? A. Agan ddn't know that they wanted that a 0 0 Q. After McGure was convcted n Wsconsn dd the Jesuts go back to reach out to all of the people that had come forward n the past aganst McGure? A. After the convcton? The ndvduals who had ccme forward? There weren't any. There were parents but ndvduals no. Q. There were famles that had come forward correct? A. Parents yes. Q. Dd you reach out to those famles? A. To some of them recall speakng. don't recall -- t Was probably before the convcton yes. Q. They would ntate the contact and you would respond n knd correct? Q. 'm askng you dd the Jesuts ever ntate conduct -- contact wth famles or people who may have been harmed by McGure? A. don't recall that we dd. Q. Why not? A. One reason would be that some people don't want to be contacted. We wouldn't want to open old 0 ' 0 j!z contact. ddn't want to hurt them further f they would fnd that hurtful. Q. So now just speakng of the two people who -- the two vctms of the Wsconsn proceedng. They obvously had been publc and testfed. You knew that correct? Q. And t ddn't occur to you that t mght be helpful f you ntate contact to apologze to them personally? A. don't recall f t occurred to me or not but ddn't do t. Q. Okay. n ths -- n that same sentence was readng t says we contnue to reach out n pastoral care and healng to the young man who brought the compant to our attenton. share ths not to make excuses but to establshng the facts. Do you see that? A. do. Q. And what -- the fact that you're referrng to s the fact that you were reachng out to ths young man? A. 'll have to reread that. don't know what was referrng to. 0 (Pages to ) McCorkle Court. Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00
Q. Well let me ask you was t a concern-- Q. Do you know whose handwrtng t s? was part of the purpose of ths letter was that A. No. there were gong to be meda reports and that you Q. Okay. t's dated October 0th 00. were concerned that when there are meda reports A. Okay. how those thngs are reported -_ Q. t says JL. Do those ntals -- do you know who JL mght be? Q. -- was that a concern? How they're A. JL mght be Jeremy Langford. perceved? Q. Okay. And who s Jeremy Langford? A. He's our nformaton offcer. That's not 0 Q. And that t mght not be the whole story? 0 the exact ttle. don't know what the exact ttle s. Q. Those were your concerns? Q. Do you know who TF may be? A. Those would have been my -- among my ' A. Tmothy Fredman perhaps. He's n charge concerns. of the development offce. Q. Among them? Q. And t says phone. s that JG? Probably :: A. Yeah. Jm Gschwend? Q. And you wanted to take an opportunty to A. Probably. ' tell your supporters that and the facts as you Q. And Kathleen t says underneath that? ; perceved them? A. That would be Kathleen McChesney. j 0 0 Q. And she's the person the Jesuts hred to l Q. Okay. Do you thnk those same supporters deal wth the msconduct clams? had a rght to know all the detals the Jesuts A. No. She dd some of that but we manly knew about McGure and how that was handled? hred her to nvestgate our offce and operaton A. No. to see f t was the best t could be..< 0 Q. Why not? Q. Okay. And who's Bll? A. Some of the detals would reveal names A. Bll would be Bll Gavn. The same thng.! that were not publc. All the detals would reveal They worked together.! thngs that shouldn't be revealed. Q. Okay. And then underneath that do you. Q. But you can cure that rght by just -- see the word lke we're dong n ths deposton by not usng A. do. ;j names? Q. Wants to settle ths case n the next l A. Okay. But you sad al the detals so -- week. Wants outreach to other vctms unknown.. Q. Okay. Wants robust new approach. Do you see that? ) 0 A. Beyond that; made the judgment -- that '0 A. do. ) t would not be help -- don't know that they Q. Do you remember any dscussons about the would have a rght to know everythng that went on ' -abov comng forward agan?! no. l Q. So you don't necessarly beleve the Q. Okay. Tel me what you recall. ; supporters should have all of the facts Just the ' A. Exactly what t says here that he was :; facts that you want to provde to them? nsstent that he wanted to settle the case and. A. And that others have provded to them. ' that he want - he had -- he wanted us to be robust (Whereupon Exhbt S was n our new approach. j marked for dentfcaton.) Q. And what about outreach to unknown.j 0 BY MR. PEARLMAN: 0 vctms? 't Q. 'm gong to show you what we've marked as A. f that's what t says here -- l' Exhbt No.. Have you seen ths document that's -- that's consstent wth dscussons wth '! before? A. don't recall t. That's not my wrtng. Q. Okay. And then. do you see under that t. 0 j McCorkle Court Reporters nc. Chcago llnos () -00. (Pages to 0)