»Jesus is a woman!«chosen relations Courtney Barnett vs. Laura Marling 20. March 2015 By Jacqueline Krause-Blouin Photos: Mark Pillai Two girls who play guitar meet But Laura Marling (24) and Courtney Barnett (27) are much more than that. Both are extraordinary appearances in the jungle of female singer songwriters and carried the sophisticated folk into present times. Now both Marling and Barnett release their new records on the same day. About time for a meeting and a conversation about equality, Roald Dahl, and scrambled eggs. Laura Marling and Courtney Barnett, you are both rooted in the folk rock music scene in the broader sense of the term; and yet you both seem to have very different approaches to your songwriting processes. With Courtney Barnett I received the impression that your lyrics seem to spontaneously flow out of you. With Laura Marling the lyrics sound more like hard work. Laura Marling: Yes I m afraid that s right. I take a lot of time to write but once I m done I don t improve or change anything anymore. When I listen to your songs I get the feeling that you don t change a lot either, right? Courtney Barnett: Oh actually I do. LM: Damn! CB: I seem to give people the illusion of being some sort of genius with ideas simply bubbling out of me. (laughs) In reality I have to invest a lot of time into it. But when I m done I always think: Damn, that s really something I created! LM: I write on the guitar, then I record it and only listen to it a couple of months later - some sort or preventive therapy.
Do you use the scrambled-eggs-method" as well? CB: You mean like Paul McCartney with Yesterday? LM: Yes, he sang before he had the proper lyrics, something like, Scrambled eggs / Oh my baby how I love your legs, right? I am actually moving more and more towards this scrambled-eggs-thing. Also I read books and then mark words or phrases and use them. And you? CB: I write a lot of lyrics and only after that I pick up my guitar and see how I can put music and lyric together. But I also use the book trick! A little while ago a german pop theorist said: Fuck lyrics - if the music doesn t move me a good lyric can t convince me either. Interesting thought or bullshit? LM: Oh I think that s difficult, music and lyric are an inseparable entity for me. But people are obviously moved by different things. For me personally lyrics are essential. Still classical music can move me very deeply. CB: Yeah perhaps the guy didn t look up the lyrics. But I m not saying that the music comes second. I m stuck in my head a lot and to escape that world I jam a lot with my band. We get really drunk and just mess around on our instruments. You could think that a lot of lovely spontaneous things are created this way but when I listen to those things in the morning I always think oh wow this is awful, we re such idiots! LM: But it s good to just let it all out from time to time! CB: Yes! And sometimes it does pay off! Sometimes we get into this really clever phase - like after six hours or so! (laughs) Do you surprise yourself too and just start to improvise on stage, like Dylan? LM: You mean during the performance? Does he do that? CB: Oh yeah he does it all the time. You can t even recognise the songs. LM: I could never do that! CB: Me neither, I wouldn t have a clue what I was doing. But we can have another chat about this in fifty years. LM: It actually is legitimate though, it must be so boring to always play the same songs. I decided to not play any of the really old songs on my new tour. What s over is over. Laura Marling, in the past you complained about being in your head too much. Did you find a way out of it by now? LM: No sadly it s still like that. I mean I m happy I m able to think (laughs) but sometimes I wish I could turn it off. But hey, apparently that s the type of person I ll always be! (rolls eyes) CB: It s the same for me Laura, even though people don t tend to think that of me. Actually my album is entitled Sometimes I Sit And Think, Sometimes I Just Sit - but mostly it s the first. Courtney Barnett, how important is sarcasm as a stylistic element for you? CB: I use sarcasm a lot. But I think it s mostly laziness. Laziness or the fear of naming things as they are and having the balls to say what you really think. Does that make sense? (Marling nods encouragingly) I love Roald Dahl s books! When I was younger I was properly obsessed with Dahl and I think his dark humour influenced me a lot. But sometimes my sarcasm drives me crazy. I use it to seem as if I don t take myself
seriously. Oh man I really do that way too much. It s all Roald Dahl s fault! Damn. I just did it again. LM: I think I practically never use sarcasm as a stylistic element. My problem actually is that I am so exaggeratedly honest that I make people uncomfortable with it. I need more sarcasm Courtney! (both laugh) By the way I also love Roald Dahl. He was completely obsessed with the idea of mortality and once said humans are so ridiculous, they only have this really short time on earth and still take themselves so very serious! I think only this attitude gets you safely through life. CB: Yeah we should all base our lives on children s books! Laura Marling, I was surprised by your use of swear words on the new record. LM: Well I moved to Los Angeles and obviously I was linguistically influenced over there. CB: Which curse word do you use? LM: I dropped the f-bomb! CB: Are you getting one of those 'parental advisory stickers? LM: Yeah, who would have thought! CB: Cool! I don t curse at all on my record. But I sing about masturbation and things like that. I ll play in Singapore soon. They wanted to see my setlist in advance to control the lyrics. You can t say 'fuck! in Singapore, you d be arrested! LM: Seriously? Are you allowed to say 'masturbation? CB: No! I can t even say 'Cigarettes and Alcohol. Oh god, I still need to find a different word for 'masturbate! LM: Masticate? CB: I m sure I ll forget about it and get arrested! Oh no, in Singapore you even get flogged! LM: Fuck! Hey Courtney, by the way, do you write your songs with your band? CB: No, I write the basic framework by myself. And you? LM: I m always all by myself. Always. And I love to write at night with a good glass of wine. The best thing is when I m alone in a room but the room next door is full of people. CB: Do these people have to make a lot of noise? LM: No, I don t care about that as long as there are people over there. It has this strange voyeuristic aspect as if someone s going to catch me in the act at any moment. I need the time by myself, I m easily overwhelmed when spending time with a lot of people.
Laura Marling, you chose to take a year off. Did you have enough of your life as it was? LM: I simply was completely drained. I was on tour all by myself in the US, without a tour manager. I wanted it to be like that. I even collected my own salary and took it to the bank. One day I had to go to a radio interview and I didn t even have the time to brush my hair beforehand, I looked insane! The people there were scared of me. That s when I knew I needed some time off. CB: How long were you on tour by yourself? LM: Eight months! It was a great experience but it was definitely too long, it was really crazy at times. Then you moved to LA, to find serendipity. It almost seems self-destructive to do that in LA of all places, right? LM: Yeah I know! (laughs) I don t think I ll ever get rid of being slightly self-destructive. But in this case it was more a coincidence. I fell in love with a Canadian and we just ended up in LA. Then I broke up with the Canadian but stayed in LA. Yes yes - very self-destructive, I know. CB: Hang on, I always confuse San Francisco and LA. Is LA the one with the silver LM: Silver Lake! Yeah, that s where I lived.
Laura Marling, you seemed to be undercover in Los Angeles and didn t tell anyone how famous you are in Europe. That doesn t sound easy in a country where the first question of a conversation always is What do you do for a living? LM: Yes that s really impertinent. CB: The question isn t even what do you do? but more what can you do for me? LM: Yes! Luckily I didn t even have to lie though. In LA I focused on things that didn t have anything to do with music. I worked very hard on applying for a course at university and wanted to study creative writing. I even applied under a pseudonym, I think I wanted to figure out what the real life really is like. But then they didn t accept me so in real life I m obviously no poet! (laughs) Sometimes I did tell people though that I was a musician and then the Americans always said oh that s cute! Another singer! (uses fake voice). But the music scene in LA is so incredibly versatile and you really should take it seriously. CB: I could never live over there. I love Melbourne. Why is it that people always want to be where they aren t at the moment? Laura Marling, people like to call you an old soul, Courtney Barnett, you are called a tomboy. Do these labels annoy you? CB: Even when I was a child I was called a tomboy so I m used to it. But journalists are lazy, they just copy what has been written before and then you end up with a label like that. I m also a slack-pop musician and the female Kurt Cobain! (laughs) LM: The female Kurt Cobain, cool! CB: Obviously people need labels, I try not to be impressed by that. LM: As long as the label they give you doesn t trivialise you and what you do I think it s OK. But I m asking myself if this labeling is more common with women? In any case I m extremely sensitive about women being labeled. But that might just be my complex, I m way too sensitive to that and make things worse like that. I was always victim to these weird limitations. When I was travelling by myself people told me that as I woman I shouldn t do that. I think if men can t pigeonhole a woman on first glance, or are overwhelmed by her, they say she must be psychotic. They trivialise women by saying that these women must be crazy. That s how they keep them small and harmless. People also say of me that I m an outsider or an old maid. Laura Marling is the modern Miss Havisham! A line on your new album reads Who do you think you are / Just a girl who can play guitar. CB: It really pisses me off when people say wow you play the guitar, that s cool for a girl! LM: When someone says that to you you should beat them up with your guitar. We still live in a world dominated by men, not only the music scene is like that. The men are the players, it s the same old story. You sound very disillusioned. People say it s a antiquated topic but the facts are very different. After actress Charlize Theron found out, through the Sony leak, that her male co-star earned significantly more than she did, she negotiated a new contract. LM: That s the right thing to do! Funnily enough though this is a much discussed topic in the US. Feminism is a very important topic over there.
Here in Europe we have the feeling that it is sort of antiquated to talk about feminism but we still don t do anything about it. In the US there s a lot more women in leading positions. My press agency in LA for example is run exclusively by women. CB: But it isn t important whether it s women or men. They re all human. LM: I simply think it s interesting. In my opinion we should find a natural balance everywhere. I don t think we need a quota, but the fact is: you can smell an onion, or eat a rose, but that s not how you use them in the best way. Equality to me doesn t mean that we should melt men and women into one creature but to give every single person the same opportunities to express their individuality. CB: I wish I was eloquent when this topic is concerned. But even if I feel so much about it, it all is so confused in my head. LM: I know what you mean. I always have the feeling that what I say about this topic is so trivial. But we can t think like that. Just because we don t have any definite answers doesn t mean that we can t ask these questions. Do you sometimes feel that you re not being taken seriously just because you are just a girl who can play guitar? LM: I think a lot of this comes from your education. Some people learn that it s not womanly to have a strong opinion. These people are sometimes surprised when I have a very strong and clear position about something. They think that I should stick to singing instead of making any kinds of statements. Like you are this small shy mouse, why do you have an opinion like that all of the sudden? CB: But sometimes I like it when people don t know your opinion about something. The female songwriter should be more of a medium and not a spokeswoman? As you say on your record take what you want from me / I m a reflection of what you want me to be. Because you are scared of having a strong opinion or because it doesn t matter what you personally think? CB: The music always has to come first, it s the most important part. People will always take my songs and project their shit onto me and I think that s OK. I don t want to push my opinion on anyone. A song is a song and it s open for free interpretation. Was there a moment in which you did not only accept but celebrate your womanhood, instead of fighting it? Laura Marling, you sing I m a woman now / Can you believe? LM: That s a thing I observe both in myself and in other women. We feel neither old nor young, we never know whether we are adults or not. I m not really sure. Every year I think oh man, I m so much younger now than I was back then! I was never as old as I was. Does that make sense? (Barnett nods hesitantly) CB: Well I always feel young but that s because of my relationship. I found myself a girlfriend who is 40. I will always be the 'young girlfriend, yeah! (laughs) LM: I don t even know if I ever fought my womanhood. I was simply a girl and then all of a sudden I had breasts and an ass and I had to mentally grow into this body.
Did you have to prove sometimes that even though you re a woman you are an artist? LM: Yes, I think a lot of young women feel insecure about being taken seriously as an artist and their reaction is to masculinise themselves. To be undefinable so you can t be attacked. But I don t think that only happens in the music business. CB: I hate dresses but that doesn t make me less of a woman, and I don t masculinise myself either. I never had any problems with it. I don t think about it and I m simply myself. LM: In any case there s a lot of great examples how you can get a lot of respect with a combination of femininity, sexiness, and incredible talent. I m thinking about Stevie Nicks - she is insanely feminine and still she has this strength. She is simply herself. I mean I don t know how it was in the beginning but I can t imagine her ever walking around without any make-up. For you, Courtney Barnett, Jesus is a woman! CB: Oh man this is really deep here! (laughs) Yes the basis of the song in which I sing about Jesus being a woman was a conversation with my mum. I complained about the fucking awful government in Australia and there was this moment during which I realised that my parents are a lot more conservative than I thought. My mum told me to not write about politics or religion. What the fuck? I mean, what kind of a comment is that? Allegedly people don t want to hear about that, she said. So I wrote a song about Jesus. Are you religious? CB: No, it s more a song about religious visions you know, about these people who see God in a slice of toast. In the beginning of this song I am disillusioned and then I see this apparition of Jesus, and he s an aggressive man. The song though develops towards me noticing that I have to be thankful for what I have. And somehow this insight and thankfulness felt very feminine, very sensual. So I decided: Yes, Jesus is a woman! My God, that was a proper therapy session, Laura!