Then the picture was taken where the mountain ridges surround the resort at the relaxed side The picture was taken of the red Sky descending One man said to another: no gunfire is heard it is hard to hear anything the mountain is too high. I keep the future in the freezer preserved in the shape of ice cubes Until the first hot day I'll keep it there No gunfire heard. The sunset was great The picture was taken of an ice cube melting
Damir Očko Marc Bembekoff Reversed interview
DO There is a kind of taking off the skin process in the works I am developing right now. Trying to question the internal structures of how and why particular works are made. In The Third Degree, I express the role of the camera differently, and the way I am doing it is by making it perform itself, integrated in the subject of the film. So while I carry on with the subject, at the same time, I make us, the crew and the camera a symbiotic part of it. You see, there is an idea of togetherness that I am interested in. Togetherness that evolves from the violent together in the last sections of TK, towards The Third Degree in which another idea of togetherness is created through kaleidoscopic images and reflections. This idea embeds the questions of guilt and collective responsibility by taking off the skin of the film as well. A new film could simply open and a question might pop up: Shall we now burn together? MB We are all going to burn together in one way or another. It is not a pessimistic vision, but a rather practical and responsible positioning. The world in which we live gets carried away, and this process has continued to intensify. We are both actors and spectators of the mutations of the contemporary world. Such an observation is not new and has been haunting the Art History iconography for centuries, for example in the apocalyptic representations of Hieronymus Bosch or Pieter Bruegel the Elder. This lucid vision of the world and our positioning as a spectator facing a representation appears also in the theatre of Bertolt Brecht. It seems to me that The Third Degree, with the inclusion of the team filming and the production process is part of this dynamic: the distinction between the acts of seeing and doing gives rise to a critical and artistic construction, which undermines the relationship of subordination of the viewer and makes 26 him an actor, actively involved in the project. That is what Jacques Rancière analyses in The Emancipated Spectator. DO Of course, it is not about pessimism at all. In fact the collective pyre I am imagining is something necessary a moment we could induce and sustain as a society. It is very interesting what you are saying in relation to The Third Degree and the merging moment of the two sides of the film: the seen and the unseen. However, I feel that we could scratch the surface even further. Besides the obvious exposure of the act of filming/seeing in relation to the act of what is filmed as a kind of a representation for the audience in the contemporary world, what I aim for is more of a meltdown. The process of filming becomes the film itself. We, the crew merge with the subject and become a single body. This body further reflects ethical concerns if you think about the particular subject of The Third Degree, but on a wider scale it is also concerned with the role of art as a political protagonist. The reason behind this is a troubling filming of TK, where I have experienced more moral dilemmas on how the film was made. The filming took place in harsh conditions and our subjects were standing naked, surrounded by the crew who were well dressed for the winter. It was like making a film about violence in a very violent way. It got me thinking about whether reflecting on this could somehow resonate on the wider social mechanisms that work in the same way. The actions and movements we take to come to a certain point. Does it all matter, or do we only hide behind opinions? MB We are all the transmitters of an opinion. Through his works, the artist presents a point of view so does the curator: from the moment that we I mean, each individual express ourselves, we inscribe ourselves into a rhetoric; we launch the 27
lines of approach and other angles to see the world differently either by magnifying or criticizing its excesses. In The Third Degree, you can clearly feel those moments where everything blends and melts, creating hybrid zones where the body is fragmented. This visual sedimentation which is also a layering of senses becomes sometimes abstract, which also mirrors the abstraction of a world we have more and more difficulty understanding. DO I have become more interested in reaching a kind of a tipping point with my works, as I said earlier to embed more than just an opinion. Even though it is very difficult to sort of live-stream the rhetoric, I go for it as a combination of an intellectual and emotional experience for the audience. There should be a sense of an adventure in the way one goes through my works. The Third Degree grows as a kaleidoscope; it questions not only the means of making things, but also the means of engaging an audience. Reflections are filmed, and everything within is bouncing back to the film itself as a camera-subject loop. I do wonder however, how one makes a tool that could also reflect the audience and their real life experience of the film: a camera-subject-audience loop if possible. Where might we find the tipping point in which the togetherness I spoke of earlier might also include the audience? From a curatorial point of view this must be an interesting challenge, right? MB Well, yes, obviously. The exhibition format itself could be the tool that serves as a shifting point. From a curatorial point of view, including the viewer is always central. The visitors are actually at the very heart of the exhibition device, they become the receiver or the target. If they see and/or feel things, at one point, if they recognize their own image, it 28 takes their consciousness onto another level. An immersive installation, I think that the display of the Pavilion of Croatia plays an important role in such awareness: the spatial path leads to this, especially the reflection of the body and space (as well as the roofs of Venice) in broken mirrors that give rhythm to the space, like different stations. The mirrors are very important in this project, first and foremost in The Third Degree film. Even during the shooting I was both uncomfortable and fascinated by the device you conceived: it was really intense to see the set and to be included in it at the same time. The kaleidoscope really works, it repositions us. All the images in the text are a documentation of the shooting of The Third Degree. DO The kaleidoscope is a device of disembodiment. It gives an analytical image with its fragmented, accidental reflections. I am interested in the analytical. First and foremost, I would like to dissect and open up the way the works are made. This is not just apparent in The Third Degree, but in the other works as well. Poetry scattered throughout the rooms of Palazzo Pisani S. Marina show discreet instructions on how it should be read out loud. Constellations of objects that are more of a placeholder for ideas rather than art itself are there to reflect the state of my works in stages between the production 29
and reception. There is, of course, the way the exhibition is conceived and that is more as an analytical curve than a classical display of works. Managing the space with more analytical approach is one thing, but there is also a need to manage the time of the exhibition. Like a film, an exhibition has its duration. I don't mean the actual duration of the Biennale, but a time the exhibition itself holds the viewer within. So before we set the imaginary clock I wonder if we could consider the path between the two films, The Third Degree and TK, to be a third film as well? MB What you mention here is really stimulating. I m interested in Expanded Film and how objects displayed inside a space can produce a cinematic experience. To me, Expanded Cinema is not only a film material or a projection, but it can also be diverse objects, giving a material quality back to Time and Space. It s like being on a train and watching the landscape unfold before your eyes. This is a moment of transition, of passage from one place to another but what happens in between those two physical points is full of different scale moments, thoughts and vision. Actually, I like this shift reversing the role and the position of the body: by breaking out of the traditional movie theatre and by integrating 30 the moving body of the visitor into the exhibition space, new forms that take account of the roles of the viewer and the object created can be generated. From stillness, sitting in front of a projection, the body of the viewer starts moving. Initially physical, this visual relationship also summons up our mental resources and sets us thinking about what is on display: tangible objects, yes, but also visions of the world falling between subjectivity and externality between the closed world and the infinite universe (to quote a fascinating book by philosopher-historian Alexandre Koyré). DO It is rather a delicate procedure to expand the film throughout the exhibition. Aware of all the traps that could make it banal, I have put a lot of thought into what kind of a materialization must happen in the rooms between the TK and The Third Degree films. The main concerns were not to use objects such as props or straight-forward derivates from the films themselves and to find a way to expand the poetics of the films throughout maybe even completely different works. But then there was a question of how the objects that come from the films behave in the context of the exhibition. So I have decided to include objects such as the poems and the mirror installation, which directly derive from the films. What turned my thought around was that for example the filmed mirror installation in The Third Degree has a different role that the one exhibited. It is acting as a different tool. In the film it bounces back to the screen the internal organs of the film, peeling its skin off, and in the exhibition it embraces the audience. Conceptually speaking this completes a full circle, signifying the keywords such as togetherness in the idea of what the exhibition can be. I am justifying the fact I have turned the traps into a conceptual necessity but we have worked together on many occasions, and I know that you understand the problem of traps very well. We do what 31
is necessary and we try to avoid the excess for the sake of making a clear experience. A photography of the set becoming a collage, a mirror set becoming an installation, poetry scripting the path through the exhibition How do you see this particular material changing place from the film towards the exhibition? MB What you say about the changing role of the elements from the film set to the exhibition space is inevitable. To me, their function on the film set is totally different, even if, obviously, there are some evident links with their display on site. While being filmed, they are part of a device that generates an illusion, but in the Palazzo Pisani S. Marina, their physical quality is more than tangible. It is also crucial that they remind us of the meaning of being here, right now, in a specific venue. The standing broken mirrors, for instance, reflect the roofs of Venice and bring us back to a certain kind of reality even if I have sometimes the feeling that Venice is a city out of reality, like frozen in time... From a curatorial point of view, this material has a direct relation to the visitor, without the filter of the film: the devices are there to be experienced one by one, and by everyone. DO I refer to the mirror installation as a device of fragmentation but also as a unifying object. In The third Degree it cuts through the image, disembodying it, opening it up in a kind of a cinematic autopsy. It allows the camera to simultaneously retract and move forward, in an illusory circle. I am interested in this kind of motion and would like to create it within the exhibition. The audience moving in a circle. Starting from The Third Degree, which is rather an organic film, loop, somehow more cryptic than TK, moving through expended studies, towards the TK. But this is no dead end, 32 there is a path connecting TK back to The Third Degree screening rooms, a kind of a shortcut one can discover at the very end of the exhibition. Fragments connected into a circle. This interview, being reversed, is also a circle... However, TK and The Third Degree offer two different experiences. First one being a rather complete experience with various scenes, poetry recital and music locked into precisely scored motion. The Third Degree on the other hand is more open, organic. At the very moment while we are making this interview I am editing the film and have been thinking if my idea to include a poetry recital within it makes sense. There is an adjunct poetry: fragmented, open, reflective, but seems to me that the work anticipates a no-spoken-language approach. Now I am strongly thinking to externalize the poetry far from the film. This might create even more discrepancy between two films. How do you see them still completing each other? MB While being on the set of The Third Degree, I felt like you were being more spontaneous perhaps adventurous on how to film, less structured in a way. For TK, as well as for the films before, I guess you knew the structure from the beginning, or at least, how the material could end as an edited result. To me, The Third Degree brings this other dimension, an abstract one, non-narrative or not poem related, which drives us to something more self-reflecting. If TK is a classical film, a visual and sound path to follow for the viewer, The Third Degree, on the other hand, looks much more like a chunk, a part of the cycle developed by the current project on how to question the artistic process and the involvement of the viewer. These two films seem to function as two main poles, maybe opposite ones but complementary. Each of them leads us to two types of action, two different ways of the act of seeing, the deed/need for analyzing. 33
DO Even if The Third Degree withdraws from the structure of TK, there is still some sort of poetry happening. In both cases, I sourced some of the references later made into poems from different documents and reports about violence. I made sources very vague, dispersed through descriptions of images in which people gather to make action, often a violent one. What interests me now is, if the decision not to directly place poems in The Third Degree, the film in the exhibition layout as planned for Venice, would become an accidental placeholder for re-reading the TK poems in a different light. Gathered around we are of a reasonable distance, reads a line from TK. MB I feel that this project is also an opportunity for you to re-configure the poems that you have already composed differently, as a new way to get out of the framework. In a way, it is an opportunity to understand the poetry through an exploded way, leaving standards. I sometimes wonder if words are not some kind of a handicap, an obstacle to surpass. This distance can be beneficial, a way to mark images which can also be a form of poetry. Do poems become the inner part of the images, or vice versa? 34 DO There was one poem I removed from TK. This particular poem described a way the human skin could be treated to become a sort of a white flag. I was interested in how fragile and resilient the human skin is. Not really from an aspect of biology, but as a political boundary between self and society. I removed the poem from TK because it felt as it was a new kind of material, a subject on its own. It turned to be a starting point for The Third Degree. But the project evolved and the poem was again removed from The Third Degree, along with all the other poems I attempted to place in the new film. There was neither more place nor necessity for a spoken word. Everything but the organic flow of images would be an exercise of excess. I write poems in a very particular way, by compressing the text and the language so it becomes an act of removing rather than adding to it. That said, The Third Degree is a total poem for me. Compressed to the point from where nothing else could be further removed. It goes along the spines of my works. Poetry, music, films and other tools I use and will shown in Venice have something in common: sort of the skin of the time. But let me get back to the idea of a white flag. For me, it was an image of a defeat. Wave to surrender, to achieve peace on others terms. Your revolution has just failed. How do you see the relation between the white flag and the skin scars I show in The Third Degree? Is that a hope? MB I could say that every white flag is a failure. Once again, it s not about being pessimistic but rather stating that the constant pressure of the world has an effect on us. Traditionally, a white flag is a symbol of peace, yes, but also a will to surrender during war time. In a way, both white flag and skin scars are the signs of a defeat of our subjectivities towards the global world, but an underlying, quiet and daily 35
disappointment But there s a difference between these two types of surrender: the holder of a white flag tends to negotiate something with his oppressors. The subject is still aware of a possible peaceful rendition or resignation. Skin scars, on the other hand, are the traces of a violent submission, with no space for negotiation. Does it mean that without mediation, the body becomes irremediably damaged and endures the violence..? I don t know, but for sure we have to deal on a daily basis with this surrounding violence DO Let me get back to the origins of the project, which really grew from a simple thing. Not sure if you share the same memory as I do, but few years ago, we took a long walk after a posh art-party in Paris. It was in a middle of the night and the city was strangely quiet. You know it was kind of a silent tension that makes you walk faster because the air feels dangerously empty. We walked and didn t really talk much. But what happened then, is that there was a scream followed by shouting in the distance. It broke the city in half. And you said in a very calm and quiet voice: Well, we live in a violent world. It got me thinking about how quiet and calm a social construction is, how society with all its control and order is a construction, and how there is this organic scream suppressed under the layers of our society. Later on, when I started to develop my thoughts, I imagined this kind of concept of tranquility and I asked an old man with Parkinson to write it for me on paper. He wrote the word tranquility, but while doing so, he also wrote this scream hidden within the lines of the letters. The whole project emerged from this simple point. Another poem from TK refers to a picture I saw on Facebook: a simple sunset picture taken by a tourist. On the picture one could see the red sky closing down the bare mountains. It was beautiful and raw, a bit kitschy too. What struck me was that the 36 picture was taken on the border between Turkey and Syria and behind those mountains there was a violence happening in silence of the sunset. The more I looked into the photo, the more the red sky turned into blood dripping down the mountains. I made a poem about the precariousness of the future by describing this picture. It had the same simple origin. This is how I see poetry and its political strength. It is not about one direction and one precision, but more about making it alive, organic, able to shiver on its own, through simple things. MB I wish I could be this person screaming in the middle of the night... Sometimes, I feel this urgent need to get out of me and shout as loud as possible to the face of the world. We all should do that to remind ourselves that we are part of this madness witnesses and actors of this global stage. This could be considered as a rebellious act, a way of being part of this dramaturgy of the world, but very quietly and at a reasonable scale. Quoting the melancholy traveler Jaques in William Shakespeare s As You Like It: All the world s a stage, / And all the men and women merely players / [ ] That ends this strange eventful history, / Is second childishness and mere oblivion, / Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything. We should maybe add Sans skin Simple things, like an apparent quiet sunset, or a loud shout in the still of the night, can reveal so much of the ugliness of the beauty, and of the fate of the world. These are like small signs reminiscent of our condition. Like this red sky approaching, it says so much about living collectively. We are all aware of the violence, and all subjects of it, knowing the final outcome then, the question should simply be: shall we now burn together? 37
In morning we praise the Sun In the name of... the rotation and the return In the name of... honey, did you put the sweetener in my coffee I never drink my coffee black and bitter honey, it is bitter The world is black and bitter, but about to be stirred with a spoon in the name of the returnable Sun and the metal spoon that clings until the evening returns. Withdrawn... as the glow of two red rubies blinking in the deep. Numb and Silent, Numb and Silent, Gathered around, we are of a reasonable distance to stone the stone, numb and silent. Mouths kept shut, in heavy grip hands hold lips cold and inside are teeth chattering in tranquillity where silence is a vertue Tranquillity is an empty space between fingers but here there are no fingers and where there are no fingers, heads are turning like an answer into a question Is it? Is it stuck? Why is it stuck? Why is it? Is it? The crystal, heavy and black does not reflect the sorrow back
Numb and silent Numb and silent Together we step into the cold day where the core is chilled and the frostbitten tongue pushing the fumes through the cool blue lips the shivering word is spoken (In Tranquillity the word is shivering Tranquillity is the shivering word) Shivering warm white, The word of kindness in these cold times The dim of transparent features, shape-shifting, the empty one, that is not returning like a returnable Sun, The word that once out there assumes its lasting place among the warm white fumes dissolving in ears over and over again Repercussive but heard not In Tranquillity each stone has a purpose each has a purposed size, volume, mass, determination and every size is political Tear-stone Spit-stone Candy-stone all wrapped in nice paper Useless stone too small to be called a stone Silent-stone standing Thrown-stone understanding The circle meets at the top The Sun broke his teeth The mob all dressed up in battleship grey no makeup, rumble as they go: Bring me a brick Bring me a brick Bring me a brick This is not a rehearsal This is not a rehearsal This is not a rehearsal for a piss in the wind This is This is This is the unrehearsed run: a spontaneous piss We are We are Troublemakers we are and troublemakers are unpredictable
Burden is stuck in the throat like a starfish on the sea floor five fingers to climb up the deep advancing gradually for ages to reach a shore, and there the Sun dries it in instant and next wave slips it back to the sea floor in the same slow fall Burden is stuck in the throat Attempt to spit what is stuck Attempt to cough out what separates saying and swallowing, said in blood and keep your mouths shut! Stuck voices, leftovers, half-eaten-half-deserted other voices, bloody voices quiet voices at Sunset This is where we met We met in love to kiss with teeth...and knives curved with heavy virtues, to dance naked around the dark crystal that never looked back we danced naked all night long bodies that flicker around the pyre protecting, penetrating, purifying, unbelievable gestures, all night long
Damir Očko Marc Bembekoff Obrnuti intervju
DO U radovima kojima se trenutno bavim na djelu je svojevrstan proces skidanja kože. Pokušavam propitivati unutarnje strukture toga kako i zašto određeni radovi nastaju. U Trećem stupnju kameri dajem drugačiju ulogu, i to tako što i nju pretvaram u izvođača, integriranoga u predmet filma. Pa tako dok ga razvijam, istovremeno činim nas, filmsku ekipu i kameru, njegovim simbiotskim dijelom. Znaš, zanima me ideja zajedništva. Zajedništva koje evoluira iz onoga nasilnog zajedno u posljednjim sekvencama filma TK prema Trećem stupnju, u kojemu se druga ideja zajedništva gradi kroz kaleidoskopske slike i zrcaljenja. Ta ideja ujedinjuje pitanja krivnje i kolektivne odgovornosti tako što kožu skida i samom filmu. Tu bi se jednostavno mogao otvoriti novi film, s ovim pitanjem: Hoćemo li sad gorjeti zajedno? Sve fotografije u tekstu dokumentacija su snimanja Trećeg stupnja. MB Svi ćemo mi gorjeti zajedno na ovaj ili onaj način. Nije to pesimistična vizija, već praktično i odgovorno pozicioniranje. Svijet u kojemu živimo stalno se urušava i taj se proces 50 sve više intenzivira. Obojica smo akteri i promatrači mutacija suvremenoga svijeta. Nema u tom zapažanju ništa novo, ono se provlači kroz ikonografiju povijesti umjetnosti već stoljećima, primjerice u apokaliptičnim reprezentacijama Hieronymusa Boscha ili Pietera Bruegela Starijeg. Ta lucidna vizija svijeta i naše pozicioniranje kao promatrača suočenoga s reprezentacijom pojavljuje se i u kazalištu Bertolta Brechta. Čini mi se da je Treći stupanj, koji prikazuje filmsku ekipu i sam proces nastajanja filma, dio te dinamike: distinkcija između postupaka gledanja i činjenja dovodi do kritičke i umjetničke konstrukcije, koja pak podriva odnos podložnosti gledatelja i pretvara ga u sudionika, aktivno uključenoga u projekt. Time se Jacques Rancière bavi u Emancipiranom gledatelju. DO Naravno, uopće se ne radi o pesimizmu. Ustvari, ta kolektivna lomača koju zamišljam nešto je nužno trenutak koji bismo kao društvo mogli potaknuti i održavati. Vrlo je zanimljivo to što kažeš o Trećem stupnju i trenutku spajanja dvaju naličja filma: viđenoga i neviđenoga. No mislim da bismo tu površinu mogli još malo jače zagrepsti. Osim što, očito, razotkrivam postupak snimanja filma/gledanja u odnosu na ono što se snima kao neku vrstu reprezentacije za publiku u suvremenome svijetu, ono čemu zapravo težim prije bi se moglo opisati kao totalno stapanje. Proces snimanja filma pretvara se u film. Mi, filmska ekipa, spajamo se sa subjektom i postajemo jedno tijelo. To tijelo još snažnije odražava etička pitanja ako se uzme u obzir konkretna tema Trećega stupnja, ali u širem kontekstu također se bavi ulogom umjetnosti kao političkoga protagonista. Razlog tomu je neugodno snimanje TK-a i moralne dileme koje su me mučile zbog načina nastanka toga filma. Snimanje se odvijalo u teškim uvjetima i naši su izvođači stajali goli, okruženi ekipom odjevenom u zimsku odjeću. Kao da smo radili film o nasilju na veoma nasilan način. Tu sam se zapitao bi li refleksija o tome mogla 51
naći svoj odjek u širim društvenim mehanizmima koji funkcioniraju na isti način. Postupci i kretanja koja poduzimamo dolaze do određene točke. Ima li sve to smisla ili se naprosto skrivamo iza različitih stavova? MP Svi smo mi odašiljači stavova. Umjetnik svojim djelima nudi određenu perspektivu kao, uostalom, i kustos: od trenutka kad mi time mislim na svaku pojedinu osobu izrazimo svoj stav, upisujemo se u retoriku; otvaramo nove pristupe i druge kutove kako bismo svijet promotrili na drugačiji način, bilo tako da njegove ekscese stavljamo pod povećalo, bilo da ih podvrgavamo kritici. U Trećem stupnju jasno se mogu osjetiti oni trenuci kad se sve prožima i otapa, stvarajući hibridne zone u kojima je tijelo fragmentirano. Ta vizualna sedimentacija ujedno taloženje osjeta katkad postaje apstraktna, što ujedno zrcali apstrakciju ovoga sve manje razumljivog svijeta. DO Sve me više zanima da u svojim radovima dosegnem svojevrsnu točku preokreta, kao što sam ranije rekao, da inkorporiram nešto više od stava. I premda je vrlo teško postići live streaming retoriku, ipak to nastojim kako bih publici pružio spoj intelektualnoga i emocionalnog iskustva. Prolazak kroz moje radove trebao bi pobuditi određeni osjećaj pustolovine. Treći stupanj razvija se kao kaleidoskop; on ne propituje samo načine stvaranja, nego i načine angažiranja publike. Odrazi se snimaju i sve u njima reflektira se natrag u film kao loop između kamere i subjekta. Pitam se, doduše, kako napraviti neki instrument koji bi zrcalio publiku i njezin stvarni, živući doživljaj filma: loop između kamere, subjekta i publike, ako je to moguće. Gdje bismo mogli pronaći tu točku preokreta u kojoj bi ono zajedništvo koje sam ranije spominjao uključilo i publiku? S kustoske točke gledišta, to mora biti zanimljiv izazov, zar ne? 52 MB Da, jasno. Sam format izložbe može biti instrument koji služi kao točka pomaka. S kustoske točke gledišta, angažman gledatelja uvijek je ključan. Posjetitelji su zapravo u samome središtu izložbenoga postupka, oni postaju prijemnik ili meta. Ako u određenoj točki vide i/ili osjećaju, ako prepoznaju svoj vlastiti lik, to njihovu svijest podiže na drugu razinu. Kao imerzivna instalacija, mislim da izložba u Hrvatskome paviljonu igra važnu ulogu u takvom osvješćivanju: prostorni plan vodi prema tome, osobito odrazi tijela i prostora (a i venecijanskih krovova) u razbijenim zrcalima koja prostoru daju ritam, kao različite postaje. Zrcala su u ovome projektu iznimno važna, osobito u filmu Treći stupanj. Pa čak i tijekom snimanja taj postupak koji si osmislio u meni je pobuđivao i nelagodu i fascinaciju: iskustvo gledanja scenografije i istovremene uključenosti u nju bilo je doista intenzivno. Kaleidoskop zbilja funkcionira, stavlja nas u novu poziciju. DO Taj je kaleidoskop sredstvo obestjelovljenja. Svojim fragmentiranim, nasumičnim odrazima pruža analitičku sliku. Zanima me analitičko. Prije svega, volio bih secirati i raščlaniti način na koji djela nastaju. To nije očito samo u Trećem stupnju, nego i u drugim radovima. Poezija rasuta kroz prostorije Palače Pisani S. Marina sadrži diskretne upute da je treba čitati naglas. Konstelacije objekata, koji su više nositelji ideja nego umjetnička djela sama po sebi, ondje su da odraze stanje mojih radova u fazama između nastajanja i recepcije. Tu je i način na koji je izložba koncipirana, više kao analitička krivulja nego kao klasično izlaganje radova. Upravljanje prostorom koji ima primarno analitičku svrhu je jedno, ali podjednako je važno upravljati vremenom izložbe. Baš kao film, i izložba ima svoje trajanje. Ne mislim pritom na trajanje Bijenala, nego na vrijeme u kojem sama izložba zaokuplja gledatelja. A prije nego što navijemo taj imaginarni sat, pitam se bismo li 53
mogli o stazi između dva filma, Treći stupanj i TK, razmišljati kao o trećem filmu? MB To je doista poticajna tema. Zanima me prošireni film i kako objekti izloženi u nekom prostoru mogu stvoriti kinematsko iskustvo. Za mene prošireni film nije samo filmski materijal ili projekcija, nego to mogu biti i različiti objekti koji vraćaju materijalnu kvalitetu Vremenu i Prostoru. Kao kad si u vlaku i promatraš kako se krajolik razmotava pred tvojim očima. To je trenutak tranzicije, prolaska iz jednoga mjesta u drugo ali ono što se događa između tih dviju fizičkih točaka obiluje trenucima, mislima i vizijama različitih razmjera. Zapravo, sviđa mi se taj pomak koji izokreće ulogu i poziciju tijela: probojem iz tradicionalne kinodvorane i integriranjem pokretnoga tijela posjetitelja u izložbeni prostor mogu se generirati nove forme koje propituju uloge gledatelja i kreiranog objekta. Umjesto nepomičnosti, sjedenja pred projekcijskim platnom, tijelo gledatelja počinje se gibati. Premda je isprva fizički, taj vizualni odnos ujedno mobilizira naše mentalne resurse i potiče nas da razmišljamo o tome što je izloženo: opipljivi predmeti, da, ali također vizije svijeta na pola puta između subjektivnosti i eksternalnosti između zatvorenoga svijeta i beskonačnoga svemira (da citiram fascinantnu knjigu filozofa povjesničara Alexandrea Koyréa). DO Proširenje filma kroz izložbu dosta je delikatan postupak. Bio sam svjestan svih zamki koje bi nas mogle odvesti u banalnost pa sam dosta razmišljao o tome kakva se vrsta materijalizacije mora dogoditi u izložbenim dvoranama između filma TK i filma Treći stupanj. Najvažnije mi je bilo da ne koristim rekvizite ili predmete doslovno prenesene iz samih filmova te da nađem način da proširim poetiku filmova u možda čak sasvim drugačijim radovima. Ali tu se nametnulo pitanje o 54 ponašanju predmeta iz filmova u kontekstu izložbe. Zato sam odlučio uvrstiti predmete kao što su pjesme i instalacija sa zrcalima, direktno preuzete iz filmova. Predomislio sam se zato što, primjera radi, snimljena instalacija sa zrcalima u Trećem stupnju ima drugačiju ulogu od instalacije na izložbi. Funkcionira kao druga vrsta alata. U filmu se vraća prema ekranu, odražavajući unutarnje organe filma, guleći mu kožu, dok u izložbi obuhvaća publiku. Konceptualno gledano, time se zatvara krug, simbolizirajući ključne riječi poput zajedništva u ideji onoga što izložba može biti. Nižem opravdanja za to što sam zamke pretvorio u konceptualnu nužnost, ali ti i ja smo često surađivali pa znam da odlično razumiješ problem zamki. Činimo što je nužno i nastojimo izbjeći pretjerivanja kako bismo postigli jasno iskustvo. Fotografija filmskoga seta postaje kolaž, scenografija sastavljena od zrcala pretvara se u instalaciju, poezija bilježi put kroz izložbu Kako ti gledaš na izmještanje ovoga materijala iz filma na izložbu? MB To što govoriš o izmijenjenoj ulozi elemenata s filmskoga seta u izložbenome prostoru jest neizbježno. Za mene je njihova funkcija na filmskome setu sasvim drugačija, premda, naravno, postoje neke očigledne poveznice s njihovim postavom u izložbenome prostoru. Kad ih snima kamera, dio su postupka koji generira iluziju, ali u Palači Pisani S. Marina 55
njihov fizički aspekt više je nego opipljiv. Također je krucijalno što nas podsjećaju na značenje prisutnosti, baš sad, tu, na konkretnome mjestu. Primjera radi, stojeća razbijena zrcala odražavaju krovove Venecije i vraćaju nas u određenu vrstu zbilje iako ponekad imam osjećaj da je Venecija grad izvan zbilje, zamrznut u vremenu Što se tiče kustoske točke gledišta, ovaj materijal ima neposredan odnos s posjetiteljem, bez filtra filma: sve što je izloženo može se doživjeti individualno ili zajednički. DO O instalaciji sa zrcalima govorim kao o sredstvu fragmentacije, ali to je i ujedinjujući objekt. U Trećem stupnju on siječe sliku, obestjelovljuje ju, rastvara u svojevrsnoj kinematskoj obdukciji. Omogućuje kameri da se istovremeno povlači i kreće naprijed u prividnome krugu. Zanima me ta vrsta kretanja i volio bih je postići unutar izložbe. Da se publika kreće u krug. Počevši od Trećega stupnja, koji je dosta organski film, loop, nekako kriptičniji od TK-a, i koji kroz proširene studije putuje prema TK-u. Ali to nije slijepa ulica; postoji putanja koja TK opet povezuje s prostorijama u kojima se projicira Treći stupanj, svojevrstan prečac koji je moguće otkriti na samome kraju izložbe. Fragmenti povezani u krug. Ovaj intervju, ovako izokrenut, također je krug Ipak, TK i Treći stupanj nude dva različita iskustva. Prvo je dosta zaokruženo iskustvo s različitim scenama, poetskim recitalom i glazbom usađenom u precizno komponirano kretanje. Treći stupanj je, naprotiv, otvoreniji, organskiji. Upravo dok radimo ovaj intervju, ja montiram film i razmišljam ima li moja ideja da u nj uvrstim poetski recital smisla. Poezija je dopuna: fragmentirana, otvorena, refleksivna, ali čini mi se da ovaj rad zaziva pristup neizgovorena jezika. Sad ozbiljno razmišljam da poeziju eksternaliziram daleko od filma. To bi moglo dovesti do još većega raskoraka između dvaju filmova. Kako ti vidiš mogućnost njihova međusobnoga nadopunjavanja? 56 MB Na setu Trećega stupnja činilo mi se da si bio spontaniji možda otvoreniji avanturi u smislu toga kako snimati, na neki način manje strukturiran. Za TK, kao i za ranije filmove, pretpostavljam da si otpočetka znao strukturu ili bar kako bi materijal mogao izgledati u završnoj montaži. Za mene, Treći stupanj donosi jednu drugu dimenziju, apstraktnu, nenarativnu ili nevezanu uz poeziju, što nas tjera prema većoj autorefleksiji. Ako je TK klasični film, vizualni i zvukovni put koji gledatelj slijedi, Treći stupanj više nalikuje na odsječak, dio kruga proistekao iz čitavog ovog sadašnjega projekta o načinima propitivanja umjetničkoga procesa i gledateljskoga sudjelovanja. Ova dva filma kao da funkcioniraju poput dvaju glavnih polova, možda oprečnih, ali i komplementarnih. Svaki od njih dovodi nas do dvaju tipova radnji, dvaju različitih načina gledanja, do čina/potrebe za analiziranjem. DO Čak i ako se Treći stupanj udaljuje od strukture TK-a, ipak se tu događa neka vrsta poezije. U oba slučaja neke od referenca koje se kasnije spominju u pjesmama izvukao sam iz različitih dokumenata i izvještaja o nasilju. Te sam izvore jako zamaglio, raspršio kroz opise slika u kojima se ljudi okupljaju kako bi djelovali, često nasilno. Ono što me sad zanima jest hoće li odluka da ne prenosimo pjesme iz filma Treći stupanj direktno u izložbeni postav planiran za Veneciju nehotice postati osnovom za novo čitanje poezije iz TK-a u drugome svjetlu. Ovako okupljeni stojimo na razumnoj udaljenosti, kaže stih iz TK-a. MB Mislim da je ovaj projekt ujedno za tebe prilika da promijeniš konfiguraciju pjesama koje si već sastavio drugačije, kao nov način da izađeš iz okvira. Na neki način to je prilika da se poezija razumije kroz raščlanjenost, izvan standarda. Ponekad se 57
pitam nisu li riječi neka vrsta hendikepa, prepreka koju treba svladati. Ta distanca može biti korisna, način da se obilježe slike, što također može biti oblik poezije. Postaju li pjesme integralni dio slika ili obrnuto? DO Ima jedna pjesma koju sam izbacio iz TK-a. Pjesma je opisivala kako bi se ljudska koža mogla obraditi u bijelu zastavu. Zanimalo me koliko je ljudska koža krhka i izdržljiva. Ne toliko s biološkoga stajališta, koliko kao politička granica između pojedinca i društva. Izbacio sam tu pjesmu iz TK-a jer mi se činilo da je to nova vrsta materijala, tema za sebe. Ona je poslužila kao ishodište Trećega stupnja. Ali projekt se nastavio razvijati i ista ta pjesma izbačena je i iz Trećega stupnja, zajedno s ostalim pjesmama koje sam pokušao uvrstiti u novi film. Nije više bilo ni prostora ni potrebe za izgovorenom riječju. Sve osim organskoga protoka slika bilo bi pretjerivanje. Poeziju pišem na vrlo specifičan način, komprimirajući tekst i jezik tako da to postaje postupak uklanjanja, a ne dodavanja. Unatoč tomu Treći stupanj za mene je totalna poema. Komprimirana do točke gdje se više ništa ne može odstraniti. To je okosnica mojih radova. Poezija, glazba, filmovi i ostali alati koje koristim i koje ću pokazati u Veneciji imaju nešto zajedničko: svojevrsnu kožu vremena. No da se vratim na ideju bijele zastave. Za mene je to bila slika poraza. Zamahni zastavom u znak predaje, da dogovoriš mir po tuđim uvjetima. Tvoja revolucija upravo je propala. Kako vidiš odnos između bijele zastave i ožiljaka na koži koje prikazujem u Trećem stupnju? Je li to nada? MB Mogao bih reći da je svaka bijela zastava neuspjeh. Opet ponavljam, nije to pesimizam, nego jednostavno tvrdnja da neprestani pritisak svijeta ostavlja svoj trag na nama. 58 Tradicionalno je bijela zastava simbol mira, da, ali i volja za predajom u razdoblju rata. Na neki način i bijela zastava i ožiljci na koži znakovi su poraza naših subjektiviteta pred globalnim svijetom, ali to je pritajeno, tiho, svakodnevno razočaranje Ali postoji razlika između tih dvaju tipova predaje: nositelj bijele zastave u pravilu o nečemu pregovara sa svojim opresorima. Subjekt je još svjestan moguće mirne predaje ili povlačenja. Ožiljci na koži, s druge strane, tragovi su prisilne podložnosti, bez prostora za pregovaranje. Znači li to da bez medijacije tijelo postaje nepopravljivo oštećeno i da trpi nasilje? Ne znam, ali nema sumnje da se svakoga dana moramo nositi s nasiljem koje nas okružuje DO Dopusti da se vratim na početke ovoga projekta, koji je zapravo izrastao iz nečega jednostavnog. Nisam siguran sjećaš li se i ti toga, ali prije nekoliko godina otišli smo u dugu šetnju nakon nekakvog elegantnog umjetničkog domjenka u Parizu. Bilo je gluho doba noći i grad je bio neobično tih. Osjećala se ona nečujna napetost od koje ti se korak ubrzava jer imaš osjećaj da je zrak opasno prazan. Hodali smo gotovo i ne govoreći. A onda se začuo vrisak za kojim je uslijedilo vikanje u daljini. Raskolio je grad na pola. A ti si rekao, vrlo staloženim i tihim glasom: Pa, živimo u nasilnome svijetu. 59
Pomislio sam da je društvena konstrukcija jedna tako tiha i staložena stvar, da je društvo, sa svom svojom kontrolom i redom, konstrukcija, da ovdje imamo taj organski vrisak potisnut ispod slojeva našega društva. Poslije, kad sam se tim mislima počeo ozbiljnije baviti, zamislio sam jedan koncept spokoja i zamolio starca koji boluje od Parkinsonove bolesti da mi to napiše na papir. Ispisujući riječ spokoj istovremeno je ispisivao i vrisak skriven u potezima slova. Čitav projekt iznikao je iz toga jednostavnog zapažanja. Jedna druga pjesma iz TK-a aludira na sliku koju sam vidio na Facebooku: jednostavna slika zalaska sunca koju je snimio neki turist. Na prvoj slici vidjelo se crveno nebo nadvijeno iznad ogoljenih planina. Slika je bila lijepa, neposredna, ali pomalo i kičasta. Ponajviše me se dojmilo što je snimljena na granici između Turske i Sirije, a iza tih planina, u tišini sutona, događalo se nasilje. Što sam više gledao tu fotografiju, to se više ono crveno nebo pretvaralo u krv što kaplje po planinama. Napisao sam pjesmu o neizvjesnosti budućnosti opisujući tu sliku. Imala je isto to jednostavno ishodište. Tako ja vidim poeziju i njezinu političku snagu. Nije riječ o jednome smjeru, o jednoj vrsti preciznosti, nego o tome da oživi, da bude organska, sposobna da sama drhti, kroz jednostavne stvari. MB Volio bih da mogu biti ta osoba koja vrišti usred noći Ponekad osjećam neodoljivu potrebu da izađem iz sebe i što je moguće glasnije vrištim u lice svijeta. Svi bismo to trebali učiniti da se podsjetimo da smo dio ovoga ludila svjedoci i sudionici na globalnoj pozornici. To bi mogao biti čin pobune, način da budemo dijelom te dramaturgije svijeta, ali tiho, u razumnim razmjerima. Da citiram melankoličnoga putnika Jaquesa u Kako vam drago Williama Shakespearea: Sav svijet je pozornica;/a ljudi, žene u njoj glumci samo/ [ ] Tako zadnji prizor stiže,/toj šarenoj historiji je konac;/ Djetinjstvo 60 drugo, zaborav i propast,/ Bez zubi, vida, okusa, bez svega.1 Možda bismo trebali dodati i Bez kože Obične stvari, kao prividno miran suton ili glasan uzvik u tišini noći, mogu toliko toga otkriti o ružnoći, o ljepoti, o sudbini svijeta. Sve su to mali simptomi našega stanja. Baš kao to crveno nebo koje nam se primiče i koje nam štošta govori o životu u kolektivu. Svi smo mi svjesni nasilja i svi smo mu podložni, znajući konačan ishod i tu nam onda preostaje samo još ovo jednostavno pitanje: Hoćemo li sad svi gorjeti zajedno? 1. Preveo Slavko Ježić, Izdanje Matice hrvatske, Zagreb, 1951., str. 56.-57. 61
Credits: Impressum Cover, back, pages 40-45: Damir Očko TK, 2014 Poems from TK Pages 1, 4-5, 7-11, 14-15, 17-20: Damir Očko TK, 2014 Film stills, 4K transferred to HD video, color, sound, 19 48 Pages 2-3, 6, 12-13, 16, 21-23: Damir Očko Untitled (writings of Giuseppe Ianuzzi), 2013 Pencil on paper Pages 29, 30, 34, 47, 50, 55: Damir Očko The Third Degree, 2015 Pictures from the film set Courtesy the artist Page 46 [down]: Damir Očko Untitled, 2013 Collage, 98,5 x 50 cm Page 47 [up]: Damir Očko Untitled, 2015 Collage, 120 cm x 80 cm Page 47 [down]: Damir Očko Untitled, 2013 Photo print on archival paper, 140 x 105 cm Pages 63-88: Damir Očko The Third Degree, 2015 Film still, 4K transferred to HD video, color, sound, 11 Editors: Marc Bembekoff, Damir Očko Croatian translation: Dubravka Petrović Croatian language editor: Ana Vraneša English language editor: Chris Osborne Proofreading: Tihana Puc Financed by: Printed by: Kerschoffset Zagreb d.o.o. Graphic design: Müesli This book is published as part of the Pavilion of Croatia at the 56 th International Art Exhibition - la Biennale di Venezia. Page 38 [up]: Damir Očko Untitled, 2014 Collage, 94 x 64 cm Page 38 [down]: Damir Očko Untitled, 2014 Collage, 104 x 70,6 cm Additional support: Page 39: Damir Očko Untitled, 2013 Collage, 73 x 50 cm Page 46 [up]: Damir Očko Untitled (dismissed parts), 2013-2014 Detail, snake skin with writings, variable dimension All images courtesy the artist and Tiziana Di Caro Gallery, Naples.
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Numb and Silent let me see, what lurks under the tree with no shadow behind it A deaf mouse perhaps? Numb and silent, there might be a blind owl on that tree pale and either with no shadow but its ears turned toward the sound and the whisper without the lips that carries over the dead grass that call both flat and crisp: A deaf mouse! A deaf mouse! Where? The Owl asked, but not a fraction of tone there is against the stars Just give it back to its source back to the quiet beginning thinks the hungry owl and I'll feed myself with force until quiet again no ringing