Interview with O. C. Gibson

Interview with O. C. Gibson July 31, 1995 Transcript of an Interview about Life in the Jim Crow South Greenwood (Miss.) Interviewer: Paul Ortiz ID: btvct03105 Interview Number: 463 SUGGESTED CITATION Interview with O. C. Gibson (btvct03105), interviewed by Paul Ortiz, Greenwood (Miss.), July 31, 1995, Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South Digital Collection, John Hope Franklin Research Center, Duke University Libraries. Behind the Veil: Documenting African-American Life in the Jim Crow South An oral history project to record and preserve the living memory of African American life during the age of legal segregation in the American South, from the 1890s to the 1950s. ORIGINAL PROJECT Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University (1993-1995) COLLECTION LOCATION & RESEARCH ASSISTANCE John Hope Franklin Research Center for African and African American History and Culture at the David M. Rubenstein Rare Book & Manuscript Library The materials in this collection are made available for use in research, teaching and private study. Texts and recordings from this collection may not be used for any commercial purpose without prior permission. When use is made of these texts and recordings, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain additional permissions as necessary and to observe the stated access policy, the laws of copyright and the educational fair use guidelines. http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/behindtheveil

CENTER FOR DOCUMENTARY STUDIES AT DUKE UNIVERSITY DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA BEHIND THE VEIL: DOCUMENTING AFRICAN AMERICAN LIFE IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH ORAL HISTORY PROJECT INTERVIEW WITH: O. C. GIBSON JULY 31, 1995 GREENWOOD, MISSISSIPPI

INTERVIEWER PAUL ORTIZ

BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW: Mr. Gibson, could you tell me when you were born and what area you grew up in, sir? O. C. GIBSON: I was born December 27, 1928 in Le Flore County. Well, Greenwood is in Le Flore County. Mr. Gibson, what was Greenwood like when you were growing up for black people? O. C. GIBSON: Well, all I can say when I was growing up, we very seldom we'd come to town. I couldn't tell you exactly what it was like, you know, back in them days, 'cause I lived in the country. I was born and raised on the plantation. I grew up on a plantation. If we come to town, it would just be on the weekend. Mr. Gibson, sir, and your family farmed? O. C. GIBSON: The whole family farmed. We all grew up on plantation.

Did you farm on halves? O. C. GIBSON: Sharecropping. That's the only way you could farm back then. Mr. Gibson, what kind of crops did you family raise? O. C. GIBSON: Cotton and corn. Can you tell me about what the black community was like on that plantation? Did the black families share with each other when times got hard? O. C. GIBSON: Oh yeah. There was cooperation among the blacks during that time. That's the only way you could make it. Back then you cooperate with one another among the blacks. What were some examples of how black people cooperated? 2

O. C. GIBSON: Well, back in those days times were hard. Like if we didn't run out of something to eat, just sugar or flour. If your next door neighbor had it, you go over there and borrow it from him til you get some. Back in those days they furnished something like every two weeks or every month. That's your furnishings. It started on the first of March, cause you wouldn't produce no kind of money unless you work by the day, but you couldn't work by the day because you were sharecropping. You had to work in your own crop. Mr. Gibson, what about if a family member took sick would people help, the black people help each other out during those days? O. C. GIBSON: Oh yeah, 100%. They'd help one another, cause back in them days all plantations had what you call a plantation doctor. If somebody got sick enough, they'd have to go to the boss man and he'd call the doctor and send him out there on the plantation to see what's wrong with somebody. Could you depend on the plantation doctor or did you have to use what, home remedies? 3

O. C. GIBSON: Well, you use a lot of home remedies, but now if you got sick enough, you know, you had to get the plantation doctor. Cause a lot of sickness back in that time, folks didn't use no doctor. They used the home remedies which was better than a doctor anyway. If you catch a cold, wouldn't nobody think about no doctor, or the flu or something like that. They'd make up their own remedies. What kinds of remedies were used, Mr. Gibson? O. C. GIBSON: Different type stuff. They could make you something like a tea. Like make it out of hog hoof tea. It's a hog hoof. Take the hog hoof that come off the hog's foot and boil it real good. You know, boil it and you drink the juice off of it real hot. I have drunk what you can shuck tea. Shuck. Shuck. That shuck you shuck corn with. And what would you drink shuck tea for? O. C. GIBSON: That's for a cold. 4

For a cold also. O. C. GIBSON: I'm speaking of just remedies for a cold. And then they had a medicine, which everybody know about castor oil. You'd go to the store and get a bottle of castor oil. That's mostly what yo' mama would give you the first sign, a dose of castor oil or Black Draught. You get that too. Now Mr. Gibson, I heard about, now Black Draw was, was that a plant? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. That's a liquid. Look something like a powder like. Heat water and put it there and stir it up real good. Same as if you would use instant coffee now, and stir it up. It'll come to a liquid and you drink it. Nasty! But, it would kill a cold. That's why a lot of folks back in them days didn't fool with a doctor. You had to get real sick something like with pneumonia or some another, you know, that they couldn't figure out your complaint. That's when they would call the doctor. Mr. Gibson, back in those days did the 5

plantation owner allow you to take like sick days off? O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't no sick days. Wadn't no days off. He didn't know what a day off was. No vacation. No nothing back when you were farming. You work every day he say work. How about schooling, Mr. Gibson. Did you go to school during those days? O. C. GIBSON: Very few children had the opportunity to go to school. They demand you to work in that field. If you went to school, we had to start something like in December. Go to school in December, January, part of February. We'd have to quit, because you start breaking up land in March. Would you go back after you finished planting. O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh, you couldn't go, because after you plant and everything the week or so was up and you started chopping. So you started chopping after about a week. 6

O. C. GIBSON: Well, if you planted, according to how the weather would be. They'd plant corn sometime the last of March. They'd plant cotton seed about the 15th of April somewhere along in there. Well, then you started chopping. You was chopping plumb til it get too big to chop. That's what you call your laying by then. That'd be along about the 4th of July on, you know. Just about like this time of year now. Mr. Gibson, did black farmers use like signs to plant by like signs of the moon or cycles? O. C. GIBSON: Talking about cotton? Or just anything? Just crops. O. C. GIBSON: Naw, you didn't use no kinds of signs to plant cotton, because the man would plant it whenever he got ready. He'd just tell you when to plant it and you plant it. Now they'd use signs on gardens or different stuff like that. But they always, one of these, I forget the name of that almanac you get that tell you when to plant like something going to raise on the 7

top of the ground and something going to raise, bear under the ground. The signs in the almanac tell you what time to plant that. Just say if you going to plant bunch butter beans. The sign you have to plant them on the sign of the moon when they going to raise on the top of the ground and the dark of the moon they always say that's to plant like you going to plant and raise potatoes or something. Something that grow under the ground. Mr. Gibson, did stories about your grandparents, about what it was like when they were coming up, did those kinds of stories pass down in your family about? O. C. GIBSON: Cause back in them days you didn't, actually we didn't have no way to keep a record on anything. You just grew up out there on that plantation. Cause I never went to school that much. I just learnt what I learnt on my own. I never got pass the fourth grade. When I got big enough, I had to work. I worked winter and summer, cause my mama and daddy was sickly, see. Wadn't nary one of them able to work and either somebody had to work or the man would put you off that plantation. So I was the baby of the family and I was the head of the house. 8

And Mr. Gibson, how old were you when you had to take over that responsibility? O. C. GIBSON: Between 11, 12, and 13 years old. And what would you do to make money? O. C. GIBSON: Make money? Yes sir. O. C. GIBSON: There wadn't no money. We'd get out there. Like we'd have a day fielding some corn or something like that. You go behind and scrap the corn and take it down there and sell it. When you had to take over those responsibilities what did that mean? What kinds of responsibilities did you take over? Was it the farming? O. C. GIBSON: Well, the farming was ending too, but just like during the winter time those are your rough months. After 9

you get through farming and everything and settle up on through December, after Christmas on you had to haul your own wood. Cut your own wood. All after that. So that's when you had to do that all. O. C. GIBSON: I had to do all that. Well, you raise hogs and cows, you know. Not cows. Just had a milk cow. That's all you could raise. farm? Mr. Gibson, about how many acres did your family O. C. GIBSON: Oh, we have farmed somewhere between 30 or 40 some acres. And that was about the average size of the plots. O. C. GIBSON: Just according to how big your family was. Seven of us in all, but my mama and dad was sickly. So it was just five children. Well, my brother when he got big enough he 10

left home. That didn't leave but four children there. When you got a chance to go to school, Mr. Gibson, which school did you go to? O. C. GIBSON: Well, we didn't have no school. Back in them days you went to church. It was just like a church. Church setting in the country. That's where they taught school at. Wadn't no schools back in them days. And what was the name of your church? O. C. GIBSON: It was Traveler's Rest. And so both the church service and the school would be in the same... O. C. GIBSON: Same building. Would the parents pay for that? O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't no charges back in those days. Just 11

the government paid the school teacher. Then you have to buy your books. Oh, you had to buy your books. O. C. GIBSON: Had to buy your books. And carry your lunch to school. There wadn't no lunches or nothing. You carried your sandwich or whatever. So I assume you walked also. O. C. GIBSON: What? I assume that you walked to school. O. C. GIBSON: Walked? That's the only way you got there, if you got there. Wadn't no bus. No nothing. If it was pouring down rain and you maybe had to get an old sack or something, throw over you and walk a piece and stop awhile or if it was raining too hard you just had to stay at home that day because there wasn't no other way to get to school but walk. 12

Mr. Gibson, what was the black community like on the plantation you grew up in? What were some of the major, what would you say were the most important people in the black community when you were growing up. O. C. GIBSON: I couldn't see where there was no important, because everybody worked just alike. Everybody went through the same procedures back in them days when you stayed on them plantations. Wadn't no other procedures you go through. Cause if you had to go to a field and chop cotton or anything there was somebody out there over you. On some occasions some fellow would maybe have a little better break than the other had, you know. But it all wound up the same thing. Everybody equals the same back in them days on one of them plantations. Mr. Gibson, earlier you talked about you tried to get your crops laid by by fourth of July. Did the black community have like maybe a picnic when that was done when work was by. O. C. GIBSON: You could have a little something if you wanted to, but see back in those days, well, back in them days 13

mostly you stayed in the country back there. You didn't come to town like, wadn't nothing like it is now. We used to have like you call it country baseball, you know, you may have heard talk of pasture baseball. Now that's what we usually what we would play on the weekends is baseball. Like the fourth of July they may have a big ball game over there, you know. Maybe somebody may be out there selling ice cream or somebody may make them some, back in them days folks used to make home made beer. Home brew they called it. Somebody might be selling it or somebody might be slipping and selling some corn liquor or moonshine out there. That's the fun you could have at a ball game. And that would be black teams playing each other. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Black. Just like, maybe we down here at Riden's Farm. That was the name of our team, Riden's Farm, but further on down the road you got Cruger, Tchula, Lexington, or Itta Bena, or you know. All them had teams too like on one of them plantations. We just play one another. Just like a major league team. Just like the Chicago Clubs play the Cincinnati Reds. Something another like that. We didn't have no schedule. 14

Just, we played Cruger this Sunday. And we play Tchula next Sunday. Or they play us up here on us home. We go down there and pay their business back and the next Sunday we'll say it's on their home town. Most get to play on Sundays. Sometimes we play on a Saturday, when it would rain where you couldn't go to the field. Do you play baseball Mr. Gibson? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. What position did you play? O. C. GIBSON: Center field. What was your most exciting game you ever had, you played in. O. C. GIBSON: I don't know. We had a heap of good games. I couldn't tell you. Did the Riden's team, did you have a real good 15

team during those games? O. C. GIBSON: We had a good team. We beat a bunch of these teams around. There was a team up this road called Race Track. They was tough to beat. They had a good team. Then another team out here in this hill, Acorn, out there around Flash Hawk. They had a good team. Get down there around Tchula. They had a good team. We had to play ball to beat them. We beat them, but we didn't beat them every time you met them. They'd beat us some. Mr. Gibson, who would organize the teams? O. C. GIBSON: Well, when I was big enough to remember that was going on. And that was during the black, the black community organized those? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Just whoever on that plantation could play ball. If you wanted to play ball, you could play. Wadn't no salary or nothing involved, cause when you met one another you just bet some times, thirty cents a man, or fifty five cents a 16

man, or whatever money you could get up and bet. Now if you win, if you bet $1.05, when you'd get a dollar, cause they used that nickel to pay the umpire off. That's why he bet a $1.05, or $.55 or $.30, you know, like that. Mr. Gibson, when you were growing up did you have any sports heroes, any like boxing heroes or like? O. C. GIBSON: Well, only boxing I could remember way back in them days was Joe Louis, cause we used to listen at him fight way back during the 30s and the early part of the 40s. We had battery ready, battery radio cause back in them days you didn't have no electricity. You just stayed back over yonder with the lamp light. Get your battery. Get your radio and get a piece of hay baling wire and tie it up and make an antenna way up in the air. We couldn't get buy one station. Well, you could get two or three stations on it? Did every family have a radio? O. C. GIBSON: Who all could afford one. 17

If you couldn't afford a radio, how would you listen to it? O. C. GIBSON: They'd go to the next fella's house or whoever's got one. So it sounds like if there is a big Joe Louis fight there might be a lot of... O. C. GIBSON: Be a bunch of 'em at this house or a bunch of 'em at that house, you know. Where ever somebody had a radio. Have it sitting on the front porch and everybody'd be out in the yard. Do you remember one Joe Louis fight, Mr. Gibson, in particular that was just a big fight that stands out in your mind? O. C. GIBSON: Well, Joe Louis was a great fighter. About one of the best fights he ever had was when he fought Billy Con. I forgot what year it was. 1938 or somewhere. I don't know what year it was. But Billy Con had him whipped plumb up til the, 18

Billy Con had whipped him 12 rounds, from the first to the twelfth round he had him whipped. His manager told him to stay away from him thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen rounds. Said you got your first wind. He messed around and went right back out there the thirteenth round. Swung at Joe Louis and missed him. Joe Louis hit him with a left, caught him with a right. You may see that tv sometime. And he fell right across Joe Louis' feet. In about, some seconds of the 13th round, he whipped him after he had him beat all the way through the round. So I take it you would usually be rooting for Joe Louis. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. I saw that fight in the movie. They showed that fight in the movie. Okay. So you would go to movies back then. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, you could go to the movies back then. Where would you go to the movies at? 19

O. C. GIBSON: Come here to Greenwood. Up there on John's Street they had a theater called the Dixie Theater. Was that a black owned theater? O. C. GIBSON: Some white went there too. Back in them days some whites went there too, but it was just mostly black. Cause they had a Paramount Theater and didn't nothing go there but whites. The Dixie Theater was up here on John's. The Paramount Theater was uptown. At the Dixie did they have segregated seating? O. C. GIBSON: Uh huh. If you went there, you sat where you got a seat at. So it was mixed. O. C. GIBSON: I have seen whites go there but not really. Most of the whites went to the Paramount Theater. But the Dixie Theater was really the black 20

theater? What kind of movies would show there? westerns. O. C. GIBSON: Oh, they showed cowboys, you know. Old So you didn't really have to worry about the segregation when you went there. O. C. GIBSON: Naw, we didn't have to worry about no segregation. Actually you didn't worry bout no segregation back in those days at all. Segregation just come about during the, I'd say the last 30, somewhere during the 50s. Somewhere during that time. Usually, maybe what brought old segregation to theaters when the time they shoot Emmett Teel. I know you heard about that didn't you, sir. That's when what you call the real segregation started. Now Mr. Gibson, when you say segregation, you're talking about, are you talking about racial, like violence or? O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't no violence. I'm just talking about that's when looked like they started talking about racial 21

problems. Okay. That's when they started talking about civil rights. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, that's what, I believe that's what started civil rights movement after that incident. Mr. Gibson, when you were growing up what were the race relations like between white and black when you were a child and then a young adult. O. C. GIBSON: Well, see back in them days there wasn't no segregation. I didn't have no trouble with it. In fact, I never had no trouble. I been on jobs and be knocked out of my two ( ), you know, but back when I stayed on the plantation I never had no trouble with nothing. Not no racial, because there wasn't racial back in them times. Just stayed on that white man's plantation. You farmed and that's what happened. Back there in those days, would black people in the area, would they vote? 22

O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't no voting. Uh uh. We didn't know what no voting was then. People just started to vote lately after that Martin Luther King incident, you know. He the man who started the voting. That was years later. Way up during the sixties, you know, the last of the 50s and the 60s during that time. Mr. Gibson, now you said when you were 12 and 13 you were getting ready or you actually had to really take care of your family. O. C. GIBSON: I was head of the house. Okay. How many people were in your household? O. C. GIBSON: Six of us. sisters. About six. So you had like three brothers and O. C. GIBSON: Had two brothers and two sisters, mom and dad. 23

Mr. Gibson, have you family always lived in Le Flore County or had they moved from... O. C. GIBSON: Le Flore County. I have never lived no where but Le Flore County. I have left here. Went to Detroit and stayed awhile in Chicago, but then I left my parents during the summer and came back. So your parents, and your grandparents, and your great-grandparents always lived in Le Flore? O. C. GIBSON: Always lived in Le Flore County. Mr. Gibson, when you were raised and helping to take care of the family what was your next step from there of taking care of the family when you were 13 or 14. O. C. GIBSON: What step you mean? What did you do next? Did you stay with your family for years and years? 24

O. C. GIBSON: Oh, my mother and father had passed. My mother died '52. My dad passed in '53. So that left nobody but me, my two sisters and one brother, cause my other brother he had left and gone north. But up to that point you were still farming halves. O. C. GIBSON: Still farming halves. Did you take your own plot when you were old enough to do it or did you just keep on farming the same 40 acres? O. C. GIBSON: We farmed plum up until we moved. See after my daddy passed that's when I moved out of the country, see. He passed in '53 and I moved at the end of that year in '53 after we got together all the cotton and everything. I didn't farm no more, cause I had wanted to quit long before then. I stayed on out there on account of them. I could make it without that out there in that hot cotton field, but I just stayed on out there because of them. 25

Why did you want to quit, Mr. Gibson? O. C. GIBSON: Because I could do better. You work out there which I did pretty good after I got grown, but I ain't never liked the cotton field. Tell you the truth, I've never liked it. I could pick cotton. Pick good cotton. I could pick five or six hundred pounds a day. Sometimes a little bit more than that, but I just, there just wadn't no money in it. You farm all the year and you may clear out $600, $700, or $800, but you done worked all the year. The last year we farm we made 29 bales of cotton. We cleared $690 and I chopped it and picked it all. And that had to take care of the whole family. Instead of taking care of the whole family, I just moved to Greenwood up here. Started working on ( ). Now when you were, a couple of more questions about the country. When you would, that year when you harvested, got the 29 bales could you sell that where ever you wanted to sell it? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. You didn't sell nothing. He take care of all that and give you what he wants you to have. 26

Were there any black people that sold their cotton? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. Not if you stayed on a plantation. There was some people, you know, had their own land and they could sell their own cotton, but that was very scarce. Most of them wadn't nothing but plantations. So you didn't have enough money to own your own land. At least I didn't. Were there a few black landowners in Le Flore County? O. C. GIBSON: Scattered. Not on them plantations. Now you go back out here in the hills, you know, back out in that part. A lot of folks owned a little track of land. Very seldom. Actually, wasn't nobody in the delta owned their own land. So back in the hills that was kind of tougher country in a way for to raise crops. O. C. GIBSON: Well, they made some nice crops in them hills 27

on land they owned. But I didn't grow up in that part of the country. I grew up on the plantation. If everybody grew up, I'd been out there now. Mr. Gibson, when you moved to the town in '53, you moved with your sisters and brothers who were still living with you? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, we all moved in the house together. Your mom and your father had passed and when you moved in what part of Greenwood did you live in? Did you live with your relatives or? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. Moved in me a house of my own. So at that point you were renting. O. C. GIBSON: Renting. Did any of your family still live in a plantation like uncles or brothers? 28

O. C. GIBSON: Oh yeah. I still had people still living in a plantation when we moved to Greenwood, but finally, by and by, a little by little they all left the country too. So back then basically black people were leaving the country, would try to leave and kind of moving in the city. north. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, or going north. A lot of people went Were there a lot of, do you remember farmers bringing in like Mexican migrant workers? O. C. GIBSON: Well, he used to bring them down there on the place, that was during the 40s, bring them in to pick cotton. Used to have two or three truck loads of Mexicans come in there and stay all the fall to pick cotton. Didn't have no cotton pickers then like they do now. The only way you could pick cotton was by hand. See now they got a machine to pick it. But during the 40s they'd bring Mexicans in. 29

O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Was that like during World War II times or? O. C. GIBSON: That was after World War II. Mr. Gibson, I was wondering why they started bringing in Mexicans. You said they were just, were they chopping cotton or were they just picking? O. C. GIBSON: Naw, they were picking. They never chopped it. Cause he'd have a lot of what you call day fields there, you know, but why he called it day fields that was his own field. It wadn't none of the share croppers. You pick your own cotton. Like you have a whole big two or three or four hundred acres of land back there. That's his own. But then you chop it by the day during that summer and in the fall of the year when you be at home picking, well he got to get that out. Sometimes if you get through, you can go over there and pick by the hundreds. Pay you for every hundred pound of cotton you pick and then he'd bring them in to pick the whole thing out. 30

Mr. Gibson, now when you moved into town, say it was 1953 and what was your first job when you moved into town. O. C. GIBSON: Oil mill. And what was the name of that mill? O. C. GIBSON: Planters Oil Mill. And how long did you work there? O. C. GIBSON: About eight years and a half. Now what were the working conditions like there, Mr. Gibson. O. C. GIBSON: At the Oil Mill? Oh, it was alright. All you did is just see oil mill, they would grind up nothing but cotton seeds. You know like that's where the farmer sell all their seeds to the oil mill. They grind them up and they get something like three trucks of cotton off of that seed after the gin, you know, 31

ginned it out there. Then they'd go and cut that hull into. Cut that inside into. That hull would make hulls that they feed cows off of and that good part would make oil. That's why we'd get the seed. Don't you see the home () oil you buy at the store? That's made out of cotton seed. Was it mainly black workers that worked there? O. C. GIBSON: Both of them. Black and white. Wadn't no segregation there either. You get a job there you not go, you'll ever be () there. Was there any difference in the kinds of jobs that black and white people did? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. Not at the oil mill. If you worked at the oil mill, you done whatever to be done. So you'd have black supervisors? O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't no black supervisors. 32

The supervisors were white. O. C. GIBSON: Supervisor was white. Now Mr. Gibson, during that time, you say you still were living in the same part of Greenwood? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. What area of town did you live in? O. C. GIBSON: On St. Charles. Right up there, straight on down the street. Go on around and come back around. Did most of the black people that lived there did they come from the immediate area? Like did they come off the plantations and move to St. Charles? O. C. GIBSON: Naw, you just move to where ever you could get an empty house at. You know, like if you want to move to Greenwood now. You came out looking for you a house. You just look all around. You had to have you a house where ever you could 33

find one at and that's where you moved. What now I meant, Mr. Gibson, was that when you moved there in '53, did most of the people that lived there did they come from Le Flore County. O. C. GIBSON: They were already living there when I moved there. I just found that house empty out there. So they had also come from the plantation like you? O. C. GIBSON: Some of them did. Some of them didn't. The other ones kind of grew up there. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Mr. Gibson, who were the leaders in that neighborhood? O. C. GIBSON: Which neighborhood? 34

The St. Charles? O. C. GIBSON: Like leaders? Wadn't no leaders! Just lived out there. You rented the house from whoever owned the house. Pay your rent, light and gas bill. That's all of it. Did people in the neighborhood, earlier you talked about how people in the country would get together and play baseball and stuff. Would people in the neighborhood over here do that, do things like that? O. C. GIBSON: Well, they had ball clubs here in Greenwood. Just whoever they could get to play ball like that, cause Greenwood had two or three ball clubs, you know. They got the high school had a ball club. Then they had just a regular ball club. Back in them days you had baseball. That's most of the sports you be had back in them days. Baseball. Near bout every plantation around had a baseball, cause you never played no football or basketball. Like on this plantation you didn't have nowhere to play at. But baseball, you could go out there and clean off a place anywhere and play baseball. That's most sports 35

that people participate in back in them days was baseball. Mr. Gibson, were there other things that you do, the neighbors get together other times at St. Charles like for church or picnics or stuff like that. O. C. GIBSON: Naw, they never did that in the Greenwood like they did in the country. You go to your own church if you moved to Greenwood. I've gone to Traveler's Rest Church. That's the church I still went to back in the country. I didn't leave the church cause I left the country. Mr. Gibson, now you worked at the Planters Oil Mill for about ( interruption ). Now you say you worked at the oil mill for about eight years. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Did you get married during that time? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, while I was working at the oil mill. 36

How did you meet your wife? O. C. GIBSON: Well, she was running a restaurant over here. Working at a restaurant. That's how I met her. What would you do, Mr. Gibson, you and your wife, for like leisure activities, like after you got off of work? O. C. GIBSON: What are you talking about, where we would go? Yes. O. C. GIBSON: Oh, you always had places to go around. You would always have them cafes, you know, stuff like that you could go to or somewhere. You wouldn't go to church unless you're visiting somebody. Go out in the country and visit somebody. 50s? What were the real fun places to go here in the O. C. GIBSON: 50s? Well, they got a big place out here called the Elks Club. That's right back here. They would always 37

have dances there. That would be the biggest one for you to go. You know, most of the people gather up there. Some big bands used to come in here. Well, B. B. King used to come here. ( ) and Bland. All of them have played right out there. What's the name of that club? O. C. GIBSON: The Elks Club. And that was the black Elks. O. C. GIBSON: The black Elks. So that was the real happening place. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. That was the biggest place in that time was going on, you know, where you have the biggest time at. Now, Mr. Gibson, when you came to town a couple of years later, earlier you talked a little bit about the Emmett Teel incident. How did black people in this area take that? 38

O. C. GIBSON: Well, they didn't have too much to say about it. Cause actually it looked like that all happened at one time, you know. Look like the whole world and surrounding areas was more interested than just the people right around in here. Didn't nobody liked what went on, you know, but they just, in those days went on and kept your mouth shut about what happened. Would people talk about it just amongst yourselves? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, they'd talk about it amongst themselves, but not just publicize it. What did black people here think about that just amongst themselves? What was the? O. C. GIBSON: Oh, everybody think it was a terrible thing that happened. Mr. Gibson, after the, at Planters Oil Mill you worked 8 1/2 years, what came next after that? Where did you work next? 39

Company. O. C. GIBSON: Smallwood Piano Company. Baldwin Piano And how many years did you work there? O. C. GIBSON: Twenty six years and seven months. When you first started working there what were the working conditions like at Baldwin Piano? O. C. GIBSON: Well, when I first started it was alright. It was good to work there then when we first started there. Further on up the road it got a little tougher and tougher. That's when we tried to put the union in there. What made it tougher? O. C. GIBSON: Well, when Baldwin first come there they had all supervisors, Baldwin come from Cincinnati to Greenwood, but they had all supervisor was from Cincinnati. A lot of them went back. Some of them stayed, but then they started hiring in 40

supervisors around here and that's what made it a little tougher. Were all the supervisors white? O. C. GIBSON: Well, when they first started off all white, but they got, they hired a bunch of blacks too. That was in later years. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. A little later on. Well, it wadn't no way later. It was a little later on. When they first started hiring, they hired all white, but then they pitched right in and started hiring black. See that's when we got the union in there and protest against that. Mr. Gibson, when did you first hear or when did you first learn about what a union was? O. C. GIBSON: Well, I had heard about a union, but when a guy come through here, a representative come through here and started, you know, talking information about setting up a union at Baldwin. 41

name was? Do you remember what year that was and what his O. C. GIBSON: '65. Cause his name was Ralph Brandon. And what union was he from? O. C. GIBSON: International Chemical Workers Union. And where did you first meet him at? O. C. GIBSON: Oh, he come here. I was running this here care station. This used to be a care station. It was a big place. It's been cut off and I used to run the whole thing. So you, did you call him into town? O. C. GIBSON: No. Somebody sent him around here. He just wanted to know somebody that worked at Baldwin. They sent him round here. 42

You met him right over here? O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Well, this was just one building, in the building. Wadn't no wall in between. When he came in and met with you, what happened? Did you starting to him about... O. C. GIBSON: No, he started talking with me about setting up a plan to try to get a union out there, but I didn't know nothing about setting up no union. I just had to go along with him til he taught me all what we had to go through with and what all moves to make. Was he a black person? O. C. GIBSON: No, he was a white guy. When did you have your first meeting? Organizing meeting? O. C. GIBSON: That was about a year later, cause he come in 43

here and this guy, James Anthony, he's a colored guy. He's from Sheffield, Alabama. He come in here and then another representative from Jackson. At that time, he would meet with us. They had three representatives in here, but Ralph Brandon was the main one. Just helped us get it set up. SIDE B Mr. Gibson, when you first, after that first meeting with him, before you had any big meetings were you kind of skeptical at first about this union? O. C. GIBSON: Well, you weren't afraid of it, you know, but you, he'll tell you to do just like, you know. Those guys were well organized. They was well trained how to go do it, stuff like this. Especially in the south. If you just do exactly what he tell you, don't you get out of line, everything worked out just like he said. 44

How did you organize in the plant without tipping off a lot of people? O. C. GIBSON: Well, I got most people to help out. Just get around and talk to them. Find out them who will help you and not keep their mouth shut. Mr. Gibson, this is when you started organizing, around '65 and you're trying to find people that you can trust. What do you say to them to kind of get them over their skeptical ways. O. C. GIBSON: Well, you just sit down and talk to them. I can pick on the ones that I know real well that wadn't going to go back talking. What he do is he give you a lot of cards and get the cards signed. Once you get enough cards signed. I forgot how many you had to have signed before you petition the plant, but they found out we was trying to get an union in there before we got half of those cards signed. That's when they started going around trying to find out who's trying to get a union in there. By the time they got really behind us we had got enough cards signed. They had a white guy, they brung around and asked 45

somebody to find it out. They going to fire whoever participated. We got enough cards signed that if they fire him, they could charge the company with being activities. Go up there and put the list on the desk with everybody's name on it. Call off your snitchers. Have to go on working with the union. They couldn't do nothing about it then. So when they did have the first meeting we beat them just by a narrow margin. Mr. Gibson, during that first year when you tried to get an organizing group together, where would you meet at? O. C. GIBSON: Meet at? Yes, sir. O. C. GIBSON: Well, usually they'd get somebody off at the plant to host us, you know. We weren't having no meetings. All we was doing was getting folks to sign an union card. Getting them to sign up? 46

O. C. GIBSON: Yes. I had got Ralph, got Mr. Dodge to help out. Get him some cards too. I let him have some. Somebody else have some. Somebody else have some. Who were the strongest union activists? O. C. GIBSON: What? Other than yourself. O. C. GIBSON: We had a guy named Tom Steele and he was white. Yeah, he was strong and he was good. What made him an activist? What made him really a good activist? O. C. GIBSON: Well, when the company first come there they was working us so, you know, wasn't paying the salary we should have been getting. That company left Cincinnati and come to Greenwood to save money, cause they wasn't paying us nothing, not even one third of what they were paying the Cincinnati people for the same work done. 47

What kind of work were you doing? O. C. GIBSON: Piano. Baldwin Piano Company. They make pianos. They're still out there. Were you building the cabinets for the pianos? O. C. GIBSON: Uh huh. I just worked in the machine sanding department. When I first got there, I worked on the filler line. Like when you put the filler on there. Put the what? coloring. O. C. GIBSON: Put the filler on the case. That's the Oh, okay. So like painting it on. O. C. GIBSON: You spray it on with a gun and you wipe it off. That'll put the color on. Just like you ( ) that ( ) case. That wasn't nothing but plain walnut until they stained it and 48

put the filler on it and rubbed it off and it made that color to it. That's a finishing color. So that's what you did. O. C. GIBSON: Our first year when I went there, I just wiped the cases off. Then they moved me up there to hand sanding where we hand sand the stuff. I stayed in there about two years or more and then they moved me over there to machine staining department where we run all the staining with all the machines. So when you were organizing were most of the union members black? O. C. GIBSON: Most of them. We had some white people, but the majority of them were black. How would you, if you had somebody that said, I don't want to, I'm satisfied with what I'm making, you know. What would you say to that person? O. C. GIBSON: All you could do is just explain it to them 49

what the representative said. Sometimes you could get him to sign it. Sometimes you wouldn't. You'd just have to let him go. meeting? Mr. Gibson, where did you have your first public O. C. GIBSON: We used to meet here at this cafe. Oh, okay. O. C. GIBSON: We met ( ) had got a place over there on Calvin Avenue. They run us away from over there. Got a place up there on Walthorpe. They wouldn't put no lights in there. After then it was in different churches around until we build us an union hall out there. Okay. So you built a union hall. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. We didn't have the money. The joint accounts was already set up when we started getting a union. They put up the money to build a union hall, but then we paid for it later on, you know, met the notes on it. 50

But in the early days before you had enough people to sign cards you'd just meet here or your cafes. That must have been quite a struggle. O. C. GIBSON: Did have a pretty good struggle then. Of which I got along pretty good with them, cause I always done my work. I never goofed off or something. They tried to make it hard for me, but I just went ahead on and done my work and didn't say nothing. You can get by more if you keep your mouth shut than you will running your mouth. So they found out after awhile that you were one of the leaders. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah, they found it out. They suspicious in the first place, but they didn't know then. If they had a known it they would have fired me, but we got enough cards signed. Jerome Silver took that note up there and put it on the personnel's desk and had all those names on it. How did the company react then? 51

O. C. GIBSON: They had to react, because see, when we got enough cards signed and if they had a fired us then we could have filed charges against the company applying for union activities. Mr. Gibson, during that time was there other union activities going on in this area? O. C. GIBSON: Well, this same union had set up a union out there at the ( ) Hospital down there. Then there was a union set up at Picture Frames. That's a different outfit from our union. I didn't know nothing about this. I just knowed they had set up one at Picture Frames. There's a little fellow down there at the end of the street that can tell you all about it. His name is Howard. He's a black person? O. C. GIBSON: Oh, yeah. What were the things that really made you want to join the union and become a leader? 52

O. C. GIBSON: Well, I heard about the union years ago, you know. Like the auto workers union, you know. About any time you got a union you were making more money than you were just minimum wages. That's the biggest thing we was after. But see, then a union when you're doing your work on a job, meeting the obligation, fulfilling whatever you are told to do, ain't nobody got no business messing with you. But if you have problems down there which I didn't like then he said you ain't got to work for nobody like that, fire you and no thought about it. But then if you got a union if you ain't wrong, if you right, you can file charges against that guy. That's the first rule of a union. So that's what made everybody, a bunch of them sign the cards. They could only fire you for a just cause. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. If you was in the wrong, the union can't help you. But before then, Mr. Gibson, what were some of the things they fired people for, before you got that clause. 53

O. C. GIBSON: Just anything the supervisor said. They'd believe it up there at personnel or if you done it or didn't do it or what not. So really in the older days the supervisor had total power. He was kind of the boss and no one could dispute him. O. C. GIBSON: Whatever he say went. Then after you got a union in there, whatever he said went, but then you got charges against him. third step. If the union met on the first step, second step, If you just couldn't, even if you didn't you arbitrated. Then you'd get an attorney in there. The company appointed one then. Then tell your side of the story and tell his side of the story and the arbitrator would take it back and go over it. If you won the case, you won it. If you lost the case, you had the right to continue your lawsuit. Did some of those disputes in the plant, Mr. Gibson, kind of hinge on race issues like the white supervisors kind of having an animosity for the black workers. Try to kind of lord it over on, say like a particular supervisor just didn't seem 54

to like black people. Would that? O. C. GIBSON: Most all of it would run down to that, you know, and could talk either to the supervisor. If he told you to do something, do it whether it was right or wrong or whatnot, you know. You do it. If it come up wrong, up in the main office or something went wrong, he put it on you whether he told you to do it or not. Then that way you could file charges against him. When you were organizing, Mr. Gibson, where did you get your support in the community from? Say people at work, not necessarily working in the plant. Were there churches that supported you or? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. No. Nothing like that goes on in an union. That's plumb out of order. You deal with nothing but the employee in there where he works. That's the only time you see him. No. If ain't working at the plant, you out. Nothing. Got to deal with the people's in there because you couldn't bring in no outsiders. You had to be employed there. Were most of the leaders about your same age? 55

O. C. GIBSON: Not all of them. Which I say union organizers got, he got in touch with. Paul Collins was president. I was the vice-president. Just Tom Steelman, he was the sergeant-at-arms. We had a secretary, a recording secretary. We had a guy, you know, all like that. You have to have all of them to have a local union, you know. How old were, most of those people, were you all in your 30s then? Or 40s? Or younger? O. C. GIBSON: I was in the last of my 30s. Some of the people was older than I was. Tom Steelman, Paul Collins, and had two white ladies. Alice Bailey and one of them named Cathy. Had three white ladies, was on the board. So most of the people, black and white, so maybe the average age would you say was like in the 30s, the late 30s? younger. O. C. GIBSON: Yeah. Late 30s or 40s. Wadn't none no 56

Did any other organization publically support the union. Like say, the NAACP or any organization like that. O. C. GIBSON: See, we was just a local union, that's local 800. The headquarters was international. That's some folks about in Akron, Ohio. International headquarters out of Akron, Ohio. They the ones that would pay the representatives to come round and set up local unions. That was your headquarters. That was Akron, Ohio. Did any local organizations support you ever, say we support the workers, what they are trying to do. O. C. GIBSON: Local? Like what? Like say, like later on you said you started meeting in churches. Did any of those churches ever say? O. C. GIBSON: Uh uh. They would just let us meet there. They wouldn't have nothing to do with it. So until we got a union hall. We got a union hall, we started meeting at the union hall. That's the name. You don't build a building, they called it the 57

union hall cause that's what it was built for. Just union. Only. How many members did you have? O. C. GIBSON: Well, we have had as much as 600 or 700. At the time we won the election it was around 1,200 or 1,400 people working at that plant. Somewhere in that neighborhood. And we didn't win it but about 100 and some votes. That's pretty close. O. C. GIBSON: It was close. Or maybe it was a hundred and something or just one. I don't know. All I know is we won it that night. They had the election night. I wadn't even at the election. I was here. That fellow, Ralph Brandon, I was telling you about, he come back by and told us that we had winned. How did you feel when you won? back. O. C. GIBSON: I was glad of it. Then that got them off yore 58

Did you have a celebration? O. C. GIBSON: Oh, the union give a little party on it, you know, the international union hall. Did you throw one here? O. C. GIBSON: No, uh uh. I didn't throw nary one. I did enough hard work trying to get that thing set up. What did your family think about it, Mr. Gibson? O. C. GIBSON: Wadn't nobody but just me and my wife. She was running this place. I was working out there. She didn't have nothing to do with it. Did any of the wives or husbands support it. Like come to meetings. Like did you have an auxiliary, like a lady's auxiliary. O. C. GIBSON: I wanted somebody to support that and just them alone. That's the first purpose of the union, because unions 59

can't go out there and get nobody. If they have a union meeting, you are not allowed to that meeting unless'n you was invited. You can't come in. If you ain't a union member or ain't got some business there, or something 'nother like that, you don't come to them meetings. That's what they call a private organization. Would you have members of other unions sometime come and visit? O. C. GIBSON: Now if you a member of another union, you could notify him that you coming there, but you'd have to have a business there, you know. You couldn't just walk in there and sit down, attend the meeting, cause it wasn't allowed. That's why you had a sergeant-at-arms. The sergeant-at-arms be on the door. What were the differences that being unionized brought in, bring in? O. C. GIBSON: The purpose of a union is to get decent wages and be treated just like anybody else on a job. That's the purpose of a union. Like you have somebody and start mistreating and start working the devil out of them or work the devil out of 60