R.46. Special Research Projects: Tuscarora Artists

Transcription

1 This interview is part of the Southern Oral History Program collection at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Other interviews from this collection are available online through and in the Southern Historical Collection at Wilson Library. R.46. Special Research Projects: Tuscarora Artists Interview R-0832 Francine Scott 28 February 2015 Abstract p. 2 Field Notes p. 3 Transcript p.5 1

2 2 ABSTRACT -- FRANCINE SCOTT Interviewee: FRANCINE SCOTT Interviewer: William Maxwell Interview Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2015 Francine Scott is a Tuscarora artist from Maxton, North Carolina. Her primary media include cypress knee sculptures (Taxodium distichum (L.) Rich.), oil painting, and jewelry. She was born in 1971 in Maxton. Scott likes to use wild native and cultivated plants in her art materials, and sees her art as an expression of her Tuscarora identity. Native American themes run throughout her work. In this interview, Scott discussed her childhood growing up playing in the river outside her home, and her earliest experiences making art from the natural objects she found in the river, as well as school drawing projects. She expresses disappointment and anger at the disappearing forests around Maxton, for the attrition in her art supplies and the disappearance of the very muse of her home. She spoke about her cousin Ned Barton, who was her inspiration for making cypress knee sculptures. She discussed the sources of her cypress knees, and the process used in preparing the wood for shellacking and painting. She described the themes reflected in the images she paints on the pieces -- often images will reveal themselves in the contours of the wood. She described the sources of materials and processes she uses to create paintings, jewelry, and purses. She described the journey of discovery she took that led her from an initial understanding of herself as Lumbee to her present Tuscarora identity, and the family members involved in and contesting that process. With humor and wit, she describes and discusses the hybrid identity she lives as a Native American in Robeson County. She talks about Tuscarora neighbors she sees as authorities on Tuscarora culture, among them Chief Leon of the Tuscarora Nation, who also lives in Maxton. She describes budding collaborations with nearby indigenous artists, and expresses a hope of developing her art sales to the point that it will

3 3 provide a more substantial portion of her income. This interview is part of a series of interviews exploring the wild-native-plants-based arts of the Tuscarora of North Carolina.

4 4 FIELD NOTES -- FRANCINE SCOTT Interviewee: FRANCINE SCOTT Interviewer: William Maxwell Interview Date: Tuesday, 28 February, 2015 Location: Francine Scott s Apartment, 102-A Azalea Court, Maxton, North Carolina THE INTERVIEWEE. Francine Scott is a Tuscarora artist from Maxton, North Carolina. Her primary media include cypress knee sculptures (Taxodium distichum (L.) Rich.), oil painting, and jewelry. She was born on 23 May 1971 into a family of land-owning farmers outside Maxton. She spent her youth collecting driftwood and rocks in the river outside her home, and decorating them with shells and other objects. A teacher s encouragement led her to drawing, but she did not take up her present media until adulthood. Scott is a high school graduate with some college credit, and is a health care worker by trade. She has also substitute-taught. She is close to her 29-year-old niece Gina Lee Barnes. She now spends a significant amount of time making art, and would like to find a way for it to pay a more substantial part of her expenses. She spent a a good part of her childhood out in nature, and said these experiences had a significant formative impact on her art, more than the influence of any particular artist. Her art takes up themes of indigenous identity, courage, and the personal interests of her clients. She has strong feelings about the conservation of the forests in Robeson County. She bases her understanding of her Tuscarora identity on genealogical research conducted by her aunt. She is part of a close-knit community in and around Maxton who are unselfconsciously keeping Native American culture alive, with regular concerts and jam sessions in a friend s garage, attendance at powwows and crafts fairs, and the practice of a variety of arts.

5 5 THE INTERVIEWER. William Maxwell is a doctoral student in geography at the University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill. He is conducting preliminary fieldwork for a dissertation on the wild-native-plants-based arts and crafts of the Tuscarora of North Carolina. DESCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW. Maxwell and Scott conducted the interview in Scott s public housing apartment in Maxton. She has dedicated a significant amount of space in her apartment to her arts and crafts work, including storage space for media like beads for her jewelry, and a sewing machine she uses to sew purses. Although it was chilly outside, Scott cut off a noisy fan-forced heating unit so as not to interfere with the digital recorder. Maxwell recorded about one hour and ten minutes of audio beginning at about 11:30 a.m. Scott was eager to introduce Maxwell to the variety of media she uses, and some of what she says is difficult to hear on the audio recording because she is rummaging through storage spaces in search of media. This interview is part of a series of interviews exploring the wild-native-plants-based arts of the Tuscarora of North Carolina. NOTE ON RECORDING. Maxwell used a Zoom digital recorder.

6 6 TRANSCRIPT: FRANCINE SCOTT Interviewee: Interviewer: Francine Scott William Maxwell Interview Date: February 28, 2015 Location: Maxton, North Carolina START OF INTERVIEW WILLIAM MAXWELL: Good morning, William Maxwell, February 28, I'm here with Francine Scott in Maxton, at her home. Let's go ahead and get started. Thank you for taking some time out of your day for me today. Let's talk a little bit about how you came to make the sculptures out of cypress knees. Is that something that someone showed you how to do? FRANCINE SCOTT: Yes, sir, my cousin Ned Barton. He's an artist as well. About several years ago I saw some at his house and he was working on them. And then he told me, he said, "You could do it, I know you can." So we started working on it, and I started getting, I purchased a utensil from Wal-Mart. It's called a wood burning tool. So what I would do, would draw my design on the cypress, and I would plug in the wood burning tool, 'cause it gets real hot, and I can burn my designs in it, and then I can paint it. [00:01:44.25] WM: Okay, and you said, last time you told me about the one cypress knee sculpture, you also need to wait for it to dry out, is that right? You were telling me like, how do you get all the spiders out? You just wait for it?

7 7 FS: Yes sir, I go in the, where I stay at, it's a part of Lumber River, and they grow everywhere near water. And what they do is a cypress stump, a root, and what we would do, like, take a chainsaw, cut it level with the ground, and it has bark on it like a tree. And what I would do is I would take a sturdy knife called a bullfrog knife, peel the bark off. The best time to do it is when it's wet 'cause if you let it dry out you got a mess. Do it while it's wet. Peel the bark off and it's very smooth. But if you wait until it dries out it's very rough, you have to take sandpaper and sand it down smooth. And some of them's hollow, and they have like spiders, and centipedes, and mud and grass, you have to let it get it all out, wash it out, let it dry out, before you can do your arts and crafts on it, before you draw your designs and wood-burn on it. WM: Okay, so when you say you wash it out, do you like splash water on it, or? FS: What I would do, like a kiddy pool, like one of the little ones, I would run water in it. I would clean them on the outside because it's so messy, and I'll let them soak, and then I would take the water hose and I would spray it out, wash it out. WM: So, soaking it, it doesn't make it kinda swell up or anything? FS: Uh-uh. No. WM: I guess it's real used to being in water all the time, right? FS: Uh-uh, it don't faze it nor nothing. Don't hurt it nor nothing. WM: So the cypress knee sculptures that I saw that you made, and I don't think that you put any designs on it yet. I remember one that was shellacked, it was real shiny, and kinda beautiful. FS: It's plain--

8 8 WM: -- Kinda plain, and looking like wood, but I don't believe I've seen any with designs on them yet. FS: Yeah, I'm going to have to bring some and let you [unintelligible]. WM: Yeah. You also told me stories about, as a child, that you would run around in the river, along the river, and you said that you'd take home things that you found on the river. FS: Yes, sir. WM: And so, what kinds of things would you find? FS: I'd find tree limbs, rocks. Anything that's sturdy enough that I could do arts and crafts with. Leaves, limbs, and some of the old drift wood, like where trees fell down and over the years the water's formed it, it's got bruise and holes, and I can, like, see images in it, or whatever. And I would just like glue stuff on it like flowers, frogs, turtles, anything that I could glue on it. WM: And how old were you? FS: Make it artsy. I was probably about six. Well, about five or six when we moved there. And I started exploring then. [laughs] But as I got older, you know, I would, I gathered stuff then, but I would really gather stuff as I got older. WM: So you said that that place, your mother's father had been there as well, right? FS: Yes. WM: Okay. So where were you before you moved there? FS: When I was younger, we moved to 211 in Red Springs. So we weren't there long, probably a few months or so, and then my grand-daddy come and got us, and so we moved there, so when

9 9 I was about five or six. I mean, we've been there all our life, we just moved away for a little bit and come back. WM: You told me last time that your first grade teacher had an assignment for you to draw a woodpecker, and that was part of you also getting interested in art? FS: Yes, sir. I was probably about in first grade. I remember a particular day, my teacher, she gave each one of the students a animal to draw. And I remember she gave me a set a woodpeckers. And I just sat there and I looked and I said, 'Hmm, I'm a draw these woodpeckers, so I drew them, I've been drawing ever since. WM: So, you said she gave you an animal. Did she give you a picture of a woodpecker? FS: Um-hum. Yes, sir. Each child, she give us a picture of a particular animal. It was a set of two woodpeckers. WM: Like, photographs? FS: Uh-hmm. WM: All right, okay. Did you use markers or crayons or? FS: Pencils. She had us to draw them. WM: Okay. And so when did you make your first cypress knee sculpture? FS: About several years ago. WM: Were you a child when you made your first one? FS: No. WM: Would you say it was about 10 years ago?

10 10 FS: Yeah. But with the limbs and the driftwood I would work on when I was a child, but I didn't do the cypress until, reminds me about 10 years ago. My cousin, you know, he showed me that. WM: That was Ned Barton? FS: Um-hmm. WM: Is he also from Maxton? FS: He's from Fayetteville. WM: Fayetteville. FS: You ve got to meet him, too. He's cool. He's got a ceramics shop behind his house. WM: Okay. He makes ceramics? FS: Yeah, he does all sorts of art work. He sells them to everybody. His stuff is so different. He's really far out with his artwork, he is cool. He is really cool. WM: Wow. That sounds great. Does he make cypress knee sculptures as well? FS: Gaw! Six foot! WM: Wow. Damn! Where does he find cypress knees like that? FS: Now, see, he goes exploring too! [laughs] He works, but on his spare time, he works with his art work. He does paintings, I mean, he is so far out, he does it all! He's so cool, my artwork does not scratch the surface of his'un. Serious. He is awesome! WM: Do you sell some of your cypress knees in his shop as well? FS: Mm-mm.

11 11 WM: Oh, okay. Does he have a shop? FS: Mm-hmm. He's got a shop. WM: Okay, so, a street corner store? FS: No, it's behind his house. On his land. WM: And he sells from there? FS: Mm-hmm. WM: Oh, okay. Are you hoping -- we talked about this a little bit last week. So you sell your art, right? FS: Mm-hmm. WM: And you're hoping to sell more, you'd like to get that part of your, that business going? FS: Yes, sir. A shop that Ms. Beverly is going to have in Red Springs, she's gonna have me to put some of my art work in there. And that's gonna be a part of my [unintelligible] WM: Oh, okay. So, are you part of her organization as well [American Indian Mothers, based in Red Springs, NC], or? FS: Somewhat [laughs]. 'Cause I'm actually just getting to meet her because I stopped by her shop one day to let her look at some of my artwork, my necklaces that I had made. And she got to asking me about my artwork and looking at it, and we got to talking and meeting, and, so and she was telling me about her business, and she wants me to be a part of it.

12 12 WM: That's great. I remember, I actually talked to her on the telephone one time and she was telling me about some of the herbal medicine that she and the American Indian Mothers know about, and so we talked a little about me coming to visit her at some point. FS: So you acquaintance with Ms. Beverly? WM: I've never met her. I did talk to her on the phone. FS: Oh, she's cool, see. WM: Yeah, she's great. So at some point I was going to stop over there and see if we could get everyone together and talking about herbal-- FS: -- I think it's going to be like a co-op, too, like an American Indian Mothers co-op. WM: Yeah, it sounds like she's doing some great things over there. FS: Yes. It's going to be wonderful. WM: So that would be a great place to sell. And there's also, maybe you could have a web page or something and sell on the Web or, have you talked to the, I know there's an art shop in Pembroke. You know the one I'm talking about, it's on East Third. FS: Eagle Feathers? WM: Um-hmm. FS: They got beautiful art work. Ned's got some art work in there. WM: Have you ever asked them about selling some of your art? FS: Um-hmm. WM: What did they say?

13 13 FS: They wanted me to get my stuff together and come by there but I haven't had the time to take it by there yet. But I'm planning on doing that. WM: So, what is it about the cypress knees that kind of appealed to you, that made you say, "Oh, this would be a good medium for me"? FS: I just like to do different kinds of artwork but when I see wood, I mean, it's just natural. It's from the Earth, you know what I'm saying? And you can actually, like, see faces in it. Animals. People. And I think that's a Native thing too, of the Indian people? Mm-hmm. And see, powwows are very spiritual, I mean they give thanks to the Creator, which is God. I mean, he made everything, so, yeah. WM: So, what kinds of faces and people have you drawn out in the cypress knee sculptures? FS: Hmm, I have drawn all sorts of things. Can actually see Indian chiefs' faces, you can see like animals, like, wolves I've got it on one of my phones, I think it's at a friend's house right now. But you can actually see the wolf's head up like he's howling at the moon. All I done was like, put his eyes on there, and his nose, and his hair, and then I did, like, feathers and little wolves running at the bottom of it. You can actually see the chief's face! I mean, his eyes, nose, mouth, chin, and his headdress, like his feathers? You can actually see it in that cypress. Yes, whoa. Actually, you can see three or four faces. WM: And you drew them all? FS: --in that one cypress. No, I didn't draw them, they was in there. I just left them like that. All of them was like drawed - a Brayboy? A 'B' for Brayboy, last name Brayboy, and put the

14 14 feathers on it, and on the back of it I put, like, some more feathers. But the front, I just left it alone, I just, whoa, mind blowing [unintelligible] [chuckles] WM: Why 'B' for Brayboy? FS: During this time, a few years ago, I had a sister dying of cancer, and I was working on that piece, like, sanding it down and stuff. And the nurse, she pulled up at my sister's, and she looked over there, she said, she didn't say she wanted a cypress, she said, "I want one of them trees!" So I got tickled, I laughed at her, and I told her to come over there and pick it out. So I had already cleaned a bunch of them, and a lot of them, they was over there in a circle, and I had peeled the bark off, all I had to do was sand them. And so she said, "I'm [going to] let you pick it out." So she walked off, I said, "I'll get her this one." So I started sanding it. I had already peeled the bark off. And what I would do, sand-paper by hand, and then I had a sander you plug in and sand, so when I got through with it, sanding it, I just took it in the house and stood it in front of my entertainment center and I just went on about my business. And later on, I had a lady friend from Fayetteville, she stopped by and we were sitting there, and she said, "Francine, look at them faces in that cypress knee," I said, "What?" and I looked, and they were. And all I done was, like I said, I had them under the car port and I had already peeled the bark off and I just started sanding them. That's all I had done to them and you could see the faces on them then. WM: Okay, but why Brayboy? Is that the name of the nurse that you were going to give it to? FS: That was her last name. WM: That was her last name. Okay.

15 15 FS: And she purchased that piece. And she said, she does powwows too, she dances in powwows. She said the reason, she thinks, the faces was on there was because, she said, my sister was a warrior, and that's what they represented. She was very touchy about it. WM: Yeah? Her sister was a warrior? FS: She said my sister was a warrior. The one that was dying of cancer. WM: Oh, I see. FS: She said that's what that meant to her. She said, with those faces in there. She was real touchy. She cried. WM: So, one of the faces that you drew out was your sister? FS: Uh-uh. Just the chief s face. WM: Oh okay. FS: See, it was all already in there. You could see the image in there. I did not put that face in there. WM: So your sister died of cancer, and you had cancer. FS: Um-hum. Breast cancer. WM: Did you have anyone else in your family that had cancer? FS: I had a father that passed away in [19]98, December of [19]98, with stomach cancer. As far as I know, they's the only ones.

16 16 WM: That's very hard. But I can see the power in that cypress knee that you made for Ms. Brayboy. That's a beautiful story. So, you make cypress knees, but you make other kinds of art as well. [00:19:45.02] FS: Yeah, I paint gourds, I do dream catchers, I sew pocketbooks, pillows, I do any kind of woodwork, like make signs. I make jewelry, any kind of jewelry, costume, native jewelry, I make kids' stuff too, like headbands, all kinds of stuff. WM: This is real bitter, I don't know if you like bitter chocolate, but you're welcome to some [sounds of unwrapping a wrapper] [laughs] Not a big fan? You should at least try it. I mean you like candy bars right? FS: Um-hmm. WM: You're welcome. So this is for you and for me to share, if you care to have some. [chewing sounds] Do you have any jewelry here that you could show me that you made? [break] WM: We're back with Francine Scott and William Maxwell. Hmm, all right, so, what are--. FS: This is my jewelry WM: What materials do you use? FS: That's called memory wire, and it keeps its roundness. That's wood, and I got some turquoise chips that I got from the Hobby Lobby in Aberdeen. WM: Do you know what kind of wood that is?

17 17 FS: No, all I know it's wood. If I go to flea market or other places and purchase my supplies, I'll just get something and, especially at the flea market, I'll just tear it apart and redo it. I do mostly go buy my supplies at the Hobby Lobby, Lost Colony, that's a shop up 74 in-- WM: Harper's Ferry, right? FS: Yeah, on 74 in Harper's Ferry, but it's called Lost Colony. He sells supplies and stuff, art supplies. I go there, Wal-Mart, and the Hobby Lobby. WM: That's beautiful. FS: These are glass crystals here. These is my dangle earrings here, that hang, somebody don't like the big stuff, I do different sizes, I do small, medium, large earrings. WM: I like that color here. FS: Mm-hmm. I don't know what kind of material that is but I like it, and it's very sturdy material, you won't tear it up no time soon. It'll last. [unintelligible] WM: Yeah, it's not all the same color. FS: It's got white in it too. And it's cool, it's very sturdy, sturdy stuff. And see this wire, it keeps its shape no matter what. My friend, her little girl had left a pair I had made her in her pants pocket and washed them, and it's come out the same. It didn't affect it or nothing. And my duct tape earrings that I make, they're waterproof and they're light-weight. And my little cousin, she got a pair of them, and her mom and dad kept saying, "You better take them earrings out,"and she must have heard me when I said they're waterproof, so she put them to the test.

18 18 They didn't swell up, bulge up, nor nothing. Duct tape. I actually made some earrings out of duct tape. WM: How do you do that? [00:24:04.11] FS: [Giggles] I've got to show you. [clattering] I made some breast cancer-- WM: Wow. Pink ribbons. FS: And I put it to the test too. I actually drew the feathers out. I draw everything out on paper. And what I would do, took a needle, put my hole in it, put my earring hoop ring in there and then my earring hoop and doop, got a pair of duct tape earrings. WM: So you cut that shape from something you drew on paper and then the pattern is... FS: Let me show you [unintelligible] this comes on a roll. I purchased it from Wal-Mart or Lowe's. It's about three dollars and something a roll. And what I would do is tear a piece off like this, see it's sticky on one side. And how you do it, [sound of Duct tape being pulled off roll] you pull it off. You gotta be very careful because it's very sticky and what you do, you line it up. And see, it don't be sticky then. Rub it on the edges. And what I would do, I drew my feathers out, and I'd do it, when I fold it, I put the feather on there and trace it out with an ink pen, and I cut it out with my scissors. And see that way my feathers will be about the same. They won't be off, like a big one and then a little one. Know what I'm saying? But I do different sizes, but that way, they can be the same. Know what I'm saying? WM: Mm-hmm. FS: See I got all kinda rolls. All different colors.

19 19 WM: You still have this pattern roll or you, that one's used up maybe? FS: What now? WM: You still have this pattern? FS: Yeah, I keep everything I draw. Everything I am going to work with, I draw it on paper and then I cut it out. That can be my guide, my stencil, I call it. WM: Right, but this purple and orange and gray, that came when you bought the roll, right? FS: Like this on a roll. WM: Got it. FS: They got all kinda designs. They got camouflage, they got Hello Kitty, I mean they got all sorts of designs. And it comes on the roll like that. And them's the breast cancer earrings I made. WM: Do you wear those as well sometimes? FS: Mm-hmm. I wear my jewelry. Advertise. WM: So when someone asks you, "Oh, where'd you get that?" and then you can tell them. FS: "I made it. Would you like to purchase some?" [Laughter] WM: Oh okay. Different shades of pink. FS: Pink and hot pink. WM: I like that. And this one is-- FS: That's earrings too. But they're smaller hoops. That's wood. WM: And different shades.

20 20 FS: I purchased it from Wal-Mart. That come in a pack with different color beads. And these are feathers, see the feathers? And these are turquoise and glass beads. I like to work with glass, wood, bone, all sorts of different stuff. WM: Did you get this one at Lost Colony? FS: Yes sir. WM: The feathers? Okay. FS: This is a glass. We got these during Christmas. They look like ice, with this glass. WM: Hm-hmm. FS: It's got [unintelligible] in the middle of it. WM: Okay, looks nice. And you've got one cypress knee over here. FS: Yeah, that's a little cypress. Mm-hmm. [from across room] I ain't got no designs on it but God I'm had it for a while. See how it holds? Doesn't swell up nor nothing, and I've had this one at least six, seven years. See how it looks. Long as you don't--. I've noticed, though, when you clean it like this, and if it rains on it while the bark's off of it, it'll get a mold look like dark spots, and it will look very rough, but I noticed when I clean it I just take them out the weather like the rain and stuff. WM: And then it'll be okay. It won't start molding. FS: What I'm actually gonna do with this one, my aunt, my father's sister, her daughter collects bumble bees. And I'm actually do this like a honey comb, I'm [going to] do honeycomb, and paint it yellow, and this right here, I'm get a [unintelligible] with a bumble bee, from a crafts

21 21 store, and like, he's just laying on the honeycomb. And she's just wanting me to put "Queen Bee" on there. [chuckles] WM: Oh okay. FS: Yeah, that's the reason I kept this one. Cause I'm [going to] do that for her cause, you don't find them, like, round a lot. They're just different shapes, different sizes, different shapes, and that's the onlyest one I found that's really curvey, to be a honeycomb. WM: Oh, okay, all right. So you already kinda see the shape that you're hoping to go for when you start your work. FS: Mm-hmm. WM: [pointing to a different piece] Now that one isn't from a cypress knee, is it? FS: I think that's like a ceramic piece. It's getting broke up 'n... WM: Do you make that? FS: Uh-uh. I made the necklace, though, the little thing around it. No, I didn't make it, I just purchased it at a store. See, right across there, and her hand... WM: Some wear-and-tear, yeah. FS: I like it, though... WM: Yeah, the feathers and the bells... FS: Yeah the feathers, and some of them's [unintelligible] and I thought I was going to take some of them and put some of them on some dreamcatchers, something. Use it. I don't know what kind of material it is, but I like it though. I like them sculptures.

22 22 WM: So, you make cypress knee sculptures, you make jewelry, you also [make] pillows, and-- FS: Pocketbooks. WM: Pocketbooks, okay. FS: Mm-hmm. WM: Great. FS: I paint, I also paint on them too. Paint on cloth material. WM: When you were, when you were, -- you paint, is that what you said? FS: Mm-hm. I take like a old pair of blue jeans and cut the legs of them out. And that's, I can take one leg and make two or three pocketbooks out of it, like little girl pocketbooks. I can put like flowers, horses, turtles, different -- skeeter hawks -- different images it. I hand paint them on there. WM: Okay. And and you paint as well, right? You make paintings? FS: Mm-hm. Paintings. Drawings. I do different sorts of artwork. WM: Okay. When you were a kid, were there some artists that you saw that, or art that kind of inspired you? FS: I just started from, when the teacher give me a set of woodpeckers, I draw them and I been drawing ever since. And I just started from there, like, drawing, and, me and my brother, we would come home from school every day and have a drawing contest. He was a cartoonist. He could do cartoons and stuff. I actually got some cousins that can draw. But other than that, I don't know. Cause my momma, she can't draw straight line. My father, I don't think he could

23 23 draw. My sisters and brothers, I mean, my second-oldest brother, he could draw, but the rest of them, uh-uh. WM: So when you were a little kid there weren't any kind of grown-up artists in your family that--. FS: All my uncles, they can build stuff, make it. Like, carpenters, like, build homes, but he could do like little doll houses. Now this is my mother's brother. As far as I know, the rest of them, I don't. Yeah, he could do, like, pine needle baskets. 'Cause he's got a saw mill and he uses the wood and build his porch. He builds beds, furniture. My brother, he's blind, he does that too. He can make chairs, picnic tables, swings. He uses the saw, but-- WM: Wow, even though he's blind. Just by kind of the feel of it? FS: Yeah, mm-hmm. He's got a board. He'll know that saw's there and he'll take that board [makes high-pitched sawing sound] uun-huun, I was like, I just knew I was kinda have to see a finger fly off, something, but, I watched him that day, like, whoa. After he done that, I was pretty cool then. "Okay, he knows what he's doing." WM: Yeah, wow, that's amazing. That's kinda scary, but--. FS: Scary, I was, I was sweating bullets, I was so scared. [both laugh] WM: What's your, what's your brother's name? FS: James Allen Jones. WM: Okay, and he's the blind one? FS: Mm-hmm. I'm 43, so he's got to be 46, 47. A few years older than me.

24 24 WM: Now you said before that you sell some of your art at powwows. What powwows do you go to? FS: I go to the Lumbee Homecoming every year. It's during the Fourth of July. I go to the Turkey Festival in Raeford, North Carolina. I also go to John Blue, it's in Laurinburg, North Carolina. I have been to some powwows out of town, like Mebane. I want to try this year try to go to Buckhead, Buckhead Powwow. WM: Where's that? FS: All I know is it's up the road some. I met a lady a few weeks ago, she's from there. I didn't ask too many questions because Ms. Beverly knows her real well. WM: Bulkhead? FS: Buckhead. I know it's up the road a few hours or so somewhere. WM: Ok. For the powwows, is it kind of set in stone what tribe is putting it on or... FS: Different tribes. WM: Different tribes for each one? FS: People from all over the road comes and dances. They got drum competitions, dance competitions. There is all kinds of arts and crafts, food vendors. If you haven't ever been to one, you need to go to one, it's cool. WM: Okay. FS: I'm gonna have to invite you to one. WM: Yeah, that would be great.

25 25 FS: You would love it. You and your wife and your daughter. Love it. WM: Yeah. That would be great. So I guess that's kind of the idea of the powwow too, is to bring together different tribes and nations, and-- FS: --Different, I mean, yes. And their regalias, they call it -- They don't want you to call them costumes. They want you to call them regalias, they're not costumes. And they're beautiful. And you see the different dances. Unique. WM: You said you had a family member who is a dancer as well, right? Didn't you? FS: I've got cousins, friends, mm-hmm. WM: So, some of the jewelry you make, for example, is that for the regalia? FS: When my sister and my brother-in-law got married, they had their wedding down there at the river, where my momma stays. I did her regalia, I put beads, and feathers, I did her head piece, her leg piece, her bouquets. WM: Now, are there Tuscarora powwows as well? FS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. WM: Oh, okay. So, can you think of one? FS: They have a spring powwow and they have a fall powwow. They have like two powwows a year, I think. They have gatherings and stuff like that. WM: And where are those held?

26 26 FS: A few miles up the road here. I think this be like in May. This, a Tuscarora powwow. Indian Chief Leon Locklear. He's over that. But he's getting up in age, too, so. It was back in May. WM: Do you think there's going to be someone who's going to be continuing the tradition after him as well? FS: Oh, yeah. I mean, he, I'm [going to] let you meet him too. He has actually got the braids. He wears his leather tassel things in his hair, he braids his hair. Oh yeah. He wears his regalia too. This is all year, every day. It's born and breded in him, he's dark-skinned, too. He's Chief. Mm-hmm. WM: Huh! Love to meet him some time. And what did you say was the name of that powwow? FS: It's Tuscarora. WM: Tuscarora Powwow? FS: Mm-hm. WM: It's just right here in Maxton? FS: They got a name for it. Soviet nation? We'll have to get the name. But they do have names for them. And the other one, there's a different--. They're Tuscaroras too but they're in Red Springs. They're in Hokes County. They got a, building they go to too. They're also Tuscarora. But, in Pembroke, that's Lumbee. Lumbee Homecoming, Lumbee Powwow.

27 27 WM: Okay. Now, there's also, in Prospect, there's Tuscarora Longhouse. Do you know any of those folks? FS: Are you talking about the Brookses? On Harper's Ferry Road? WM: No. FS: Cause they's got powwows two times a year too, in the summer and in the fall. I like to froze in the last one, it was so cold! WM: And they're Tuscarora too? FS: Mm-hm. WM: Okay now, the ones I'm thinking of is, it's called the Prospect Longhouse, and they're--. I'm trying to remember, if I had my atlas here I could give you a better idea. So you drive up as if you were going to Red Springs on 710, and then you take a left, I think there's a child care center there or something. Oh gosh. Hold on. I wish I had better memory. I can tell you the name of the ceremonial chief. That might help. So I'm going to use my phone to do that [sounds of electronic beeping]. I talked to him this summer and usually on Fridays they have that place open. They've got a little museum. FS: I might know who you're talking about. It's not Herb Collins, is it? WM: No. FS: [unintelligible] This is the culture center, though. North Carolina Cultural Center? WM: Stan Locklear?

28 28 FS: Stanford. I think I know who you're talking about. Is his wife's name Fay? That's the other Tuscaroras I think I'm talking about. Do you go by the Barton Powwow? WM: I've never heard them use the name Barton. FS: But I know Stan Locklear. WM: You know Stan? So Stan and his wife, they're about our age. FS: He's a few years older than me. He's very tall and he wears these bone necklaces. He's husky. WM: Okay, so the guy I'm talking about, he's big. He drives, they drive this kinda new GMC truck. FS: Is it black? WM: He's not -- FS: Is it a black truck? WM: Oh, don't remember. They've got a grown up daughter, and they've got a son who's about 15, and they've got a lacrosse team out there, they play all over central North Carolina, they play other tribes. FS: Don't know. WM: Sorry about that, you know, my memory's just--. I've got all kinds of, I should just go on, but now it's bugging me. [rustling of papers] All right, the next time we talk, I'll have that. [beeping again] Mark Deese hangs out there too.

29 29 FS: Yeah, I know Mark Deese. He's a part of the ones that hang out in Red Springs, the Barton, yeah. He knows Stan too. Stanford Locklear. WM: Okay, but their long house is a few miles out of Red Springs. FS: That's the same one. That's the one I'm talking about. WM: Okay. It's kinda more towards Pembroke. [00:45:03.29] FS: Yeah, it's in the country. WM: Yeah, it's out in the country. FS: It's off from the road. That's it. WM: Okay. It's back there in the woods. FS: Yeah, we're talking about the same one. WM: Okay, good. Sorry about that, my memory's not always that great. Okay. FS: Yeah, Stanford's very cool. His sister was actually my best friend in school. WM: Oh, okay. Him and his wife are kinda like the lifeblood of that long house. They're there cooking. FS: Yeah, cooking, eating. I think, every Friday night, I think it is. I hadn't been out there in a while. WM: His wife's mother, she's always there as well. FS: Little lady. WM: Yeah. And so they cook for the elders of the community and there's always a few people that come out. Last summer I'd be there eating with them.

30 30 FS: Mm-hmm. They're very good people. WM: Yeah. That was one thing that I was curious about, is, if you're Tuscarora here in Robeson County, I know there's different organizations, there's different long houses, and different Tuscarora Nations, but I was curious whether if you're Tuscarora, if you're just as welcome in this long house as in this long house, or is there more of a, like, you stay over there and we're doing this different thing here? Or how does that work? FS: I think everybody joins together. I think there's different Indians, like the Plain Indians, something like that, they dwelled in teepees. Our Indian people dwelled in longhouses they built. WM: Okay, and where did they start the longhouse tradition? FS: I have no clue. You will have to talk to Leon, Chief Leon, he could tell you a lot too. Stanford could tell you a lot. Stanford. They know more about it than I do. You know what I'm saying? Since I'm younger. Leon. Chief Leon Locklear. He could inform you of a lot. Actually, he's just a few miles up the road here. He's got his reservation back there, and he's got shops and his house, and, mm-hm. Beautiful land. WM: What's the name of his reservation? FS: Tuscarora Reservation. WM: Okay. And I guess there's also a Tuscarora up North, right? Around New York? FS: Yeah, there is. They scouted out. They scouted out different places. Specially, you know, when they was, back, years ago, like, our own ancestors and stuff, when they had the trail of

31 31 tears, and they was just roaming, going different directions, different places, they so scouted out. That's a sad story. I don't even want to think about it. WM: Yeah, there was some real troubles. There was a big war, and back in the 18th Century, and... FS: Yeah, that was a mess. A lof of the people, they killed a lot of our Indian people, and cut their heads off, raped the Indian ladies, I don't know, it was just so different. I don't even like to look at the movies. [sound of horror] FS: Yeah, yeah. And then, some of those movies are kinda like trying to make the Indians look like the bad guys too. FS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. See the Indians, you know, they was raised on the land. They knew the land. The other ones, they didn't know the land. WM: Comparing the past, of all those troubles, to today, how would you describe it today? FS: Still trouble! [laughs bitterly] WM: Really? FS: In a way, yeah. WM: Like what kinds of trouble today? FS: I mean, they cutting down the trees. They don't, I think they just, different ones just wanting the money, and they ain't looking at like the animals, they're running the deers from out the woods to people's houses, and in town 'cause they ain't got nowhere to live. Like the animals, the deers, the birds, the bears. Like I said I don't know if you noticed when you was tried to

32 32 coming up, they're cutting all the trees down. I mean, level! You used to couldn't see this road over there but now that they've cut the trees down, you can see the next road over. WM: I'm trying to think what else I can ask you about that, because it's real interesting. FS: It isn't just one area. I mean, we travel, I go to Lumberton, I mean, they're cutting trees down everywhere. WM: So how do you connect that, like, seeing the trees being cut down, and you seeing yourself as a Tuscarora, is that part of the history? You know what I'm trying. It's a tough question. I guess what I'm trying to say is, back in the day you were describing how the Tuscarora got all these horrible things happen to them, you know, when the white man came, and now the trees are being cut down, right? Is that another thing that's happening to the Tuscarora? FS: Yeah 'cause I think the Beverly lady, she was saying something about it, too. I was riding with her one day coming from Lumberton about a few weeks ago, and that's what she was talking about, that was her whole subject. "They're cutting down all the trees!" I mean yeah. I think it's a problem. Beverly Collins. WM: Beverly Collins? FS: Yeah, she didn't like that one bit. WM: You consider yourself Tuscarora, and there's not a whole lot of folks left in North Carolina who are part of the Tuscarora Nation. FS: I think there's quite a few, but I don't think there's as many as there were, but yeah, [mumbling] I think there's just a few left. See I think a lot of them say they's Lumbee, but I think

33 33 they're actually Tuscarora, they just don't know. But I had a uncle to marry a lady, I don't know if you're familiar with her or not, but her name's Pura Fe [Crescioni], she sings. She goes all over the world, but she looked it up, our genealogy, I reckon, and she said it was Tuscarora. She said it was from the Turtle Clan. There's like several clans. There's like, the Bear, the Wolf, the Deer, and then there's like four water animals. The eel, the snipe, it's a bird, and the turtle, and the beaver. Four water animals, so there's like several different animal clans for Tuscarora. WM: Which one do you belong to? FS: Turtle. WM: Okay. And are they all water animals, or... FS: Uh-uh. The bear, the wolf, and the deer's the land animals. And there's like four seasons, like, spring, summer, fall, winter. You remember the drum I showed you? With the animals and stuff on it? WM: Oh that's right, yeah, I do remember that. FS: You know the song, like, I don't know if you sung it when you was a child, but we did, "Jesus loves the little children of the world/ red and yellow, black and white?" The races. The four directions too. North, south, east, and west. WM: So you've got the seasons. And then you've got the land animals and the water animals, and are there then, there's also fire animals and air animals? Or is that--. FS: Well, they say, Mother Earth and Father Sky. It's different, but it makes sense.

34 34 WM: Of course, yeah. I guess the other thing I was trying to get at was. Of course, you got Tuscarora of North Carolina, then you've got Lumbee, who are actually Tuscarora, or if you get them in the right mood, they might tell you, or talk about their Tuscarora relatives, and then you've got like the Plains Indians, you've got the Cherokee, the Eastern Band. FS: My friend's got a picture, but it's like a map, and it's got all the different Indian faces on it, and where they're from, that's so cool. I wanna get me one of them, get me a print or something. WM: And then, the other issue is, some tribes have reservation, they have Indian health centers and Indian schools. FS: Mm-hmm, Indian schools, like up in Cherokee. We've seen one of the schools that they was working on or they was finished, something, but we saw the Indian school last time, I think it was about a few years ago. WM: Okay, now what about the Tuscarora? Do they have the Indian schools and the reservation? FS: Down here somewhere? Uh-uh, far's I know, no. WM: When you were a kid, did you go to Tuscarora powwows? FS: Somewhat as I got older and knew about them more. WM: Okay, so was that when you were fifteen, or... FS: Probably younger than that. Teenager. WM: Was there someone in your family, close to you, that felt like it was important to take you to these powwows or tell you about your heritage?

35 35 FS: Uh-uh. My momma, she worked all the time. My daddy did too! [laughs] Mm-hmm. WM: So it sounds like it was something more like maybe that you discovered on your own? FS: Yeah. Like, some friends, we'd go places and do things, "Oh yeah, I like that." So mmhmm. WM: How did you find out that you're Tuscarora? FS: My aunt Phil Fay. WM: She told you one day? FS: I reckon she done some research or found out. She got my grandfather, my grandmother's name. ' Cause I think I got a cousin, my momma's first cousin, she said he said our great-greatgrandma, she walked with the march, some kinda march, that years ago. She said he said she was Tuscarora and I'm trying to figure that other name he was saying that she was. I'm [going to] find out and I'm [going to] write it down. 'Cause what is that name? But the way he talked she was tough! WM: Yeah, I can imagine. FS: On that march. Said, she was there, she was part of it, wow! WM: 'The Long March?' FS: [unintelligible] on Channel 31, Discovery Channel? Back years ago, when they showed they was like throwing them bombs and they was runninh, they killed some of them? The name's not coming to me. So she was in there. WM: Was that like in the sixties or way before that?

36 36 FS: No probably way before that because I was [unintelligible] born, this is my great-greatgrandma, this is back, on back. I need to find out more because I'd like to know more, 'cause I'd like to know, you know. Mm-hmm. WM: Was something that your aunt discovered by doing some research. So before she looked into it, are you saying like, she didn't know if she was Tuscarora until she--. FS: This was our aunt by marriage. She just wanted to help us out and find out you know what nation, Tuscarora, Lumbee, 'cause I thought I was Lumbee until I found out that. She said, "Tuscarora," and I got a uncle, he says, he swears up and down he's Cherokee! [laughs] And my momma she says she's Lumbee and the other one he says he's Tuscarora. So I come up with a name myself, I said, "We're Charlumtusk," you get it? [laughs] WM: Uh-huh. Charlumtusk, that might catch on! Right? Give it a chance! [both laugh] Charlumtusk. FS: Char for Cherokee, L, then Tuscarora. Charlumtusk. It's different, aint it? WM: It is different. FS: Charlumtusk! Boy, he busted out laughing and say, "You is crazy!" I said, "I'm Charlumtusk." [laughs] WM: Then you gotta convince all the Cherokees, Lumbees, and Tuscaroras to join up and become Charlumtusk together, right? FS: [laughs] Yeah! WM: [laughs] When did your aunt do that research?

37 37 FS: It's been about--. 'Cause her and my uncle's no longer together, she's remarried, she's moved away. It would have been about 10 years ago. WM: So it was 10 years ago that you looked at what she found out and decided for yourself that you were Tuscarora. FS: Mm-hmm. Yeah cause back when I used to do a lot of my paintings and stuff, I would participate in the Native American juried art shows, and they would be up the road, and I think some of them was like in Fayetteville, and actually one of my paintings one year placed an honorable mention, with the professionals. I placed honorable mention and we'd go to some of the conferences and stuff, they would have us to stand up if we placed. And see I would put with my name, and "Lumbee" and different stuff, like with my card and stuff, my information. WM: So before your aunt did that research, did you consider yourself Lumbee, or? FS: All I know is that I was a Indian! [laughs] WM: Okay, so you hadn't made up your mind. It was almost like a faith, right? You hadn't your nation yet. FS: Mm-hm. WM: Okay. Sorry about all those questions about that but it's just real interesting to me, because I know there's a number, there's a Cherokee, there's a Lumbee and there's a Tuscarora here, and I'm just real interested in how people come to their own people, like, how do they say, "okay, I'm just--."

38 38 FS: There's a lot. It's a lot! There's so much, different ones, like the races coming together mixing, mm-hmm. WM: There's a lot of history. FS: Mm-hmm. A lot of history. A lot. WM: Would you say there's some kind of competition between the Lumbee and the Tuscarora where some are saying, "Well let's all be Lumbee," and some are saying, "Let's all be Tuscarora" or anything like that? FS: I'm pretty sure there probably is, but, mm-hmm, yeah. WM: Well, I feel like we talked about a lot today, and you told me a lot about your art and Tuscarora and a little bit about your childhood and some of your family, which I really appreciate. FS: And I got some friends I want you to meet. I think they could tell you a lot of stuff too. WM: Yeah, and I-- FS: [unintelligible] keep you going with your classes and stuff too. [chuckles] WM: Yeah FS: Where you get a A++++ [laughs] WM: I hope so. I'm looking forward to meeting your friends, but don't worry about feeling like you don't enough about it because -- FS: Still learning.

39 39 WM: Yeah! We all are. I'm interested in what you think about it. I'm still trying to learn the history. My professors, I've got a long list of books I told my professor I would read, and I just barely started cracking them open, you know. My professor, she knows a lot about the history here, and-- FS: Is she a Indian? WM: Yes she is. FS: Is she Tuscarora or Lumbee? WM: Well, I think she's a Lumbee. But what she tells me is that she's got Tuscarora family. FS: [mirthfully] See, it's like, different, I mean. Yeah. See what I'm talking about? [laughs] See I didn't know that. I didn't know that you had talked to ones that--. [giggles] But she's like me like, part Lumbee Tuscarora, part Lumbee Tuscarora WM: Right, part here and part there. She's a historian at UNC, and she's written a book about Lumbee history. This book here is a book of history. [01:07:12.09] FS: What's her name? I might know her. WM: Malinda Maynor Lowery. She's here in town today. I'm gonna introduce you all, maybe not today cause she's got a tour going and she's running left and right, but we'll introduce you at some point. FS: As I got older, I was wanting to do my own, have my own business one day with my arts and crafts, and doing some classes, like showing like children and grownups that have no drawing skills, something like that. But I know I couldn't do it by myself, so I would like to have

40 40 somebody to come together and let's do it, but I haven't got up with the right people, you know what I'm saying? WM: I wonder whether you could do that with the American Indian... FS: Plus I don't have the funds, but I know they got grants, stuff like that, to help people with small business loans, something like that. I have never done it but--. WM: I wonder if you could do it with the American Indian Mothers. FS: Yeah. I'm thinking that might be something that's come in my path for a reason, you know what I'm saying, you meet different people with a time for a reason. So I'm thinking this might be coming, this might be getting a start. 'Cause she said if you pay a certain amount, that could be part of your business too. You can do them out, I can go in there and set up a section and have my art work in there and sell it and talk about it and make money. I think it might be coming, it's just, I just gotta wait on it, know what I'm saying? WM: Seems like there's already some momentum there, you know, Beverly Collins, she's got a lot of energy. FS: Yeah, she's a fire ball, fire ball! I like her, she's cool, she's down to earth. And she put it up on the computer, about the different animals, I was telling her about turtle, and I think she's wolf. She was in tears when they showed a picture of the wolf, well, she looked at my turtle, and then, telling about the turtle with the power and the wisdom and, then she seed her wolf, and she said, "That is me." She went to crying, she went to bawling, she said, "I was touched by yours, but I'm really touched by mine!" [both laugh] That was cool. We sat in that office I don't know how