The Honourable Justice / L honorable juge G. Normand Glaude

THE CORNWALL PUBLIC INQUIRY L ENQUÊTE PUBLIQUE SUR CORNWALL Public Hearing Audience publique Commissioner The Honourable Justice / L honorable juge G. Normand Glaude Commissaire VOLUME 0 Held at : Hearings Room 0 Cotton Mill Street Cornwall, Ontario KH K Tenue à: Salle des audiences 0, rue de la Fabrique Cornwall, Ontario KH K Wednesday, July 00 Mercredi, le juillet 00 www.irri.net (00) -000

ERRATA Volume, June th, 00 Exhibits list and Page, line --- EXHIBIT NO./PIÈCE No P-: () Notes de Richard Abell datée du Should have read : Novembre --- EXHIBIT NO./PIÈCE No P-: () Notes de Greg Bell datée du Novembre Page, line MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: I see everyone is getting ready to leave, so I better leave. Should have read: THE COMMISSIONER: I see everyone is getting ready to leave, so I better leave.

ii Appearances/Comparutions Mr. Peter Engelmann Ms. Julie Gauthier Ms. Maya Hamou Ms. Mary Simms Mr. Peter Manderville Ms. Reena Lalji Ms. Diane Lahaie Mr. David Rose Mr. Abel Fok Mr. Peter Chisholm Mr. Peter Wardle Mr. Dallas Lee Mr. David Sherriff-Scott Mr. Mark Ertel Lead Commission Counsel Registrar Commission Counsel Cornwall Community Police Service and Cornwall Police Service Board Ontario Provincial Police Ontario Ministry of Community and Correctional Services and Adult Community Corrections Attorney General for Ontario The Children s Aid Society of the United Counties Citizens for Community Renewal Victims Group Diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall and Bishop Eugene LaRocque The Estate of Ken Seguin and Doug Seguin and Father Charles MacDonald M e Danielle Robitaille Mr. Jacques Leduc Mr. William Carroll Mr. Frank T. Horn Père Denis Vaillancourt Ontario Provincial Police Association Coalition for Action Père Denis Vaillancourt

iii List of Exhibits : Table of Contents / Table des matières Page iv Opening Remarks by/remarques d ouverture par Mr. Peter Engelmann Ruling on motion by Cornwall Community Police Service To excuse Ron Lefebvre by the Commissioner/Décision sur La requête par Cornwall Community Police Service pour Exclure Ron Lefebvre par le Commissaire Submissions by/représentations par Mr. Peter Engelmann PÈRE DENIS, Resumed/Sous le même serment Cross-Examination by/contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Peter Wardle Cross-Examination by/contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Frank Horn Cross-Examination by/contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Dallas Lee

iv LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE D EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO

0 --- Upon commencing at :0 p.m./ L audience débute à h0 THE REGISTRAR: Order; all rise. À l ordre; veuillez vous lever. This hearing of the Cornwall Public Inquiry is now in session. The Honourable Mr. Justice Normand Glaude, Commissioner, presiding. Please be seated. Veuillez vous asseoir. LE COMMISSAIRE: Bonjour, tout le monde. MR. ENGELMANN: Good afternoon, Mr. Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon, Mr. Engelmann. MR. ENGELMANN: Good afternoon, Father Vaillancourt. I m just here for a short purpose. Well, maybe slightly longer than that. Sir, I understand that you have a decision to release before we continue with the cross-examination of Father Vaillancourt? THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I do. Thank you. Père Vaillancourt, je m excuse pour le délais. L avion était en retard et puis il semblerait qu ils ont perdu mes bagages à un moment donné. Si vous voulez patienter une minute, j ai un

RULING/DÉCISION (Commissioner) 0 petit jugement à donner. Ça prendra pas longtemps. --- RULING ON MOTION BY CORNWALL COMMUNITY POLICE SERVICE TO EXCUSE RON LEFEBVRE BY THE COMMISSIONER/DÉCISION SUR LA REQUÊTE PAR CORNWALL COMMUNITY POLICE SERVICE POUR EXCLURE RON LEFEBVRE PAR LE COMMISSAIRE: THE COMMISSIONER: So this is a ruling on a motion by the Cornwall Community Police Service to excuse Ron Lefebvre. So on Monday, June rd, 00, I heard a motion brought by counsel for the Cornwall Community Police Service and Cornwall Police Services Board for an order excusing Ron Lefebvre as a witness at the Cornwall Public Inquiry. For the reasons which follow, I have concluded that I have not been provided sufficient information to grant this motion. The evidence in the motion is set out in the Affidavit of Danny Aikman, found in Exhibit M--A and the Evidence Brief which is filed as CM--A. Although it was not asked for by counsel, I am satisfied that the Aikman affidavit contains information of a personal and intimate nature about Officer Lefebvre. In particular, Exhibits A through E of the affidavit should be treated as confidential. Counsel for the moving party reviewed other

RULING/DÉCISION (Commissioner) 0 cases where I have granted similar motions and requests to excuse witnesses. Specifically, he referred to the Silmser and Sebalj examples where requests were made and, of course, the Leroux motion. He also indicated that this matter was the only instance where the reports relied on were from a psychiatrist. The others were psychologists and a family physician. While I agree that in cases of mental disability or mental illness, particularly where there is a fitness question, reports from psychiatrists can be most helpful, it is not simply the background of the reporter I must consider. Of paramount importance to me in this and every instance is the quality of the report or reports. For reports to be determinative, they must, in my view, address the individual s background, including the nature of the medical concern, some history of the treatment received and continuing, the prognosis in the short term, in the future, et cetera. In cases such as this one where the concern expressed is that the act of testifying will cause harm, it is important for the medical professional to indicate the nature, seriousness and likelihood of the harm and to demonstrate, through the report, knowledge of the inquiry process.

RULING/DÉCISION (Commissioner) 0 Thus, the provision to the medical professional of an anticipated evidence summary or some other summary of the areas likely to be canvassed in evidence would be helpful. As well, some knowledge of the inquiry rules and directives regarding respect for and treatment of the witnesses and the possibility of accommodative processes is important. The medical professional s view on accommodation measures that may allow the witnesses to testify should also be included. Although it has not arisen in cases argued before me, if there are medical reports used in support of these motions that do not address harm to the witness but, rather, the usefulness of such testimony as a result of diminished mental capacity, illness, et cetera, I would expect the medical professional to have and record knowledge of our processes and, again, some knowledge of the areas to be canvassed in evidence by the patient. Given the passage of time, several witnesses are now elderly, and if their memory -- if there are memory concerns, it will be important to ascertain whether these are short, medium and/or long-term memory deficiencies and the timeframe for the evidence to be canvassed with the witness.

RULING/DÉCISION (Commissioner) 0 I trust this provides counsel with some direction, not just in this instance but for future cases. While the evidence to date for Mr. Lefebvre is psychiatric in nature, many issues have not been addressed. Monsieur Lefebvre, unlike the other witnesses who have been excused, is not permanently disabled from working. In fact, I have heard that he is working as a special constable and regularly testifies in court bail proceedings. Some medical evidence demonstrating a knowledge of his current job duties and what is expected from him as a witness at the Inquiry would be useful. In addition, some reference to accommodation measures including, but not limited to, screens, video or audio links, partial written questions, the presence of a doctor or counsellor and their usefulness is expected. In this case, as with others involving possible medical problems arising from testifying, a description of the risk of a problem arising and the likely symptoms are all helpful in allowing me, as an adjudicator, to make those decisions. It is clear that Monsieur Lefebvre s evidence is important to this Inquiry given his involvement in several relevant investigations. As such, in determining whether to excuse

RULING/DÉCISION (Commissioner) 0 him from testifying, I need to base my decision on the best available evidence. It may be prudent for him to seek an independent medical opinion in this regard, but whether the future report comes from Dr. Manigat or another medical professional, it should address the issues set out herein. In conclusion, I wish to thank counsel for the Cornwall Community Police Services and counsel for the Citizens for Community Renewal, the Coalition for Action and the Victims Group for their able submissions. I trust that counsel for the Cornwall Community Police Service will discuss this matter with Commission counsel so that further work on this issue will take place in the near future, keeping in mind, of course, we are now dealing with another institution. Thank you. ---SUBMISSIONS BY/REPRÉSENTATIONS PAR MR. PETER ENGELMANN: MR. ENGELMANN: Sir, one other brief housekeeping matter. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, sir. MR. ENGELMANN: A new face today, Abel Fok, who is here for the Ministry of the Attorney General. THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Welcome aboard. MR. ENGELMANN: A representative from the Ministry.

SUBMISSIONS/REPRÉSENTATIONS (Engelmann) 0 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR. ENGELMANN: Sir, I understand that my colleague, Maître Dumais, had finished the evidence inchief --- THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR. ENGELMANN: --- of Father Vaillancourt - -- THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR. ENGELMANN: --- and that now we were going to be canvassing -- or cross-examination was to commence. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR. ENGELMANN: I ve spoken to both Maître Dumais and Maître Hamou, and I don t think they had had an opportunity --- THE COMMISSIONER: Right. MR. ENGELMANN: --- to canvass with counsel the length of the cross. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. MR. ENGELMANN: So I think that would be useful. THE COMMISSIONER: Why don t we do that now. All right. Thank you. Mr. Wardle, how long do you think you ll be in cross?

SUBMISSIONS/REPRÉSENTATIONS (Engelmann) MR. WARDLE: I expect to be half an hour, 0 minutes. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And Mr. Horn? MR. HORN: About the same. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr. Ertel? MR. ERTEL: If anything, a few minutes at the most. 0 THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. And Mr. Chisholm? MR. CHISHOLM: Five, sir. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Mr. Rose? MR. ROSE: Unexpected, sir. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. -- is it Fok -- how long do you think you ll be cross-examining, if any? MR. FOK: I don t think we have any questions. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mademoiselle Robitaille? MS. ROBITAILLE: Fifteen (). THE COMMISSIONER: One-five ()? MS. ROBITAILLE: One-five (). THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. And Mr. Manderville or Ms. Lalji?

0 MS. LALJI: If anything, just a few minutes. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. And then we go to Mr. Kozloff -- I m sorry, Madame Lahaie. MS. LAHAIE: Thank you. Nothing at this time. THE COMMISSIONER: Zero. All right. And Mr. Carroll? MR. CARROLL: Nothing, sir. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Okay. Good. MR. LEE: Sir? THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, I m sorry. Mr. Lee, see, I kept you for the best -- the best for last. MR. LEE: I would be quite happy to go last. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. And I guess, Mr. Sherriff-Scott, it will all depend on what s canvassed for you. Do you have any idea though? MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: I don t really -- five minutes at the moment, but --- THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: --- it may develop into something more. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you. Mr. Wardle, please. PÈRE DENIS, Resumed/Sous le même serment:

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 LE COMMISSAIRE: Donc, il va falloir que vous attendiez d écouter la question au complet et puis pour -- vous pouvez écouter à travers les écouteurs et puis donner votre réponse en français si ça vous plaît. Mr. Wardle. --- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY/CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MR. WARDLE: MR. WARDLE: Good afternoon, Father Vaillancourt. I m just going to adjust my headset. My name is Peter Wardle and I m here on behalf of Citizens for Community Renewal, which is an organization of concerned Cornwall citizens which is determined to promote needed institutional reform so as to ensure the protection of children and justice for all. So with that introduction, Father, I want to start, if I may, by asking you a little bit about the background of Father Deslauriers at the time of the events that you described in your evidence last week. Are you with me so far? PÈRE : Je vous suis. MR. WARDLE: And as I understand it, Father Deslauriers was the -- and I'll put the date at the time of these events, that is the events that led to Father Deslauriers leaving the Diocese and the criminal charges. At that time, am I right that he was the

Cr-Ex(Wardle) Rector at the Cathedral? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And he was boarding, as I understand it, at St-Jean-Bosco? PÈRE : C est exact; avant d être recteur de la co-cathédrale. MR. WARDLE: And he was also the chaplain at La Citadelle High School; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And was that a full-time position, do you know, or a part-time position? PÈRE : À temps plein. MR. WARDLE: And as I understand it, Father Deslauriers as you told us last week ran the R for youth aged to ; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. Mouvement 0 MR. WARDLE: But am I right that in his role at La Citadelle, he would have had extensive access to minors; that is youth under and in some cases under? PÈRE : Il avait, comme aumônier, accès aux élèves qui fréquentent La Citadelle; alors, à partir de la neuvième année. MR. WARDLE: So anyone roughly between the age of and would have perhaps come into contact with Father Deslauriers at that school; correct?

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And am I right that Father Deslauriers had some prominence within the Diocese? PÈRE : Il était aussi responsable des vocations. MR. WARDLE: And in the committee report from that year, he s described as being the right-hand man of the Bishop. Is that an accurate statement? PÈRE : C est une nature à interprétation. MR. WARDLE: All right. Was he someone that the Bishop at that time had confidence in? PÈRE : Au niveau des vocations, secteur francophone, oui, mais il avait le vicaire général, le chancelier et le Collège des consulteurs. MR. WARDLE: And when you say vocation, that would mean that aspiring candidates for the priesthood who were French-speaking would go through Father Deslauriers. Is that correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: So that demonstrates -- holding that position would demonstrate that the Bishop had some confidence and faith in him. Is that fair? PÈRE : Une certaine confiance en lui.

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 MR. WARDLE: Now, as I understand it, sir, in late January of, you were advised first of certain allegations against Father Deslauriers by a Father Champagne; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And then within a very short period of time, a day or two, by the Brisson family directly; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And then, as I understand it, you had some discussions with Father Bisaillon and Father Ménard; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And Father Bisaillon was one of the first people who the Brissons had talked to about this; correct? PÈRE : Je le sais pas s ils ont rencontré d abord le Père Bisaillon ou le Père Ménard. MR. WARDLE: And I understood from your evidence the other day that at some point in these discussions, Father Bisaillon told you about some questions he had been asked a few years earlier by a Monsignor Leduc; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And without going into the

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 details, the questions were about rumours about sexual contact between Father Deslauriers and young people; correct? PÈRE : Oui, des rumeurs. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And later on in the same time period, as I understand it, you also spoke to a Brother Laflamme? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And just for the Commissioner s benefit, Brother Laflamme was with a religious order? PÈRE : Oui, les Frères du Sacré-Coeur. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And how would he come into contact with Father Deslauriers? PÈRE : Le Père Deslauriers allait célébrer la messe une fois par semaine au Juvénat du Sacré-Cœur. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And as I understand it, what you were told by Brother Laflamme was that there were some young people who did not want to go to the confession with Father Deslauriers; correct? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And as well, there was one young person who, for unstated reasons, refused to have anything to do with him whatsoever; right?

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: So is it fair to say that at this time, January of, there had been some rumours that had circulated within the Diocese about Father Deslauriers but they had obviously, prior to this time, never made its way to you, for example? This was the first time you were hearing about any of these things. PÈRE : C était la première fois en janvier. MR. WARDLE: And as far as you know, neither Brother Laflamme nor Monsignor Leduc had reported anything that they had heard to the Bishop? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And then as I understand it, you and Father Ménard and Father Bisaillon had some discussions. At some point, the Bishop was informed of what you had learned; correct? PÈRE : Oui, par le Père Ménard. C'est-à-dire il a -- le Père Ménard a demandé que le Père Deslauriers rencontre l évêque et ensuite le Père Ménard est allé vérifier si de fait le Père Deslauriers est allé rencontrer Monseigneur Larocque. MR. WARDLE: That I understood, I think. And as I understand it, there were a couple of steps along this road. The Bishop was initially told about the single

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 allegation involving the Brisson family; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And the Bishop s reaction at that time to you was that Father Deslauriers would have to be sent away for a short period of time; correct? For counselling. PÈRE : Oui, l évêque a demandé au Père Larocque une retraite de 0 jours et aussi du counselling psychologique. MR. WARDLE: And then within a very short period of time, it became obvious that there were more allegations and the Bishop was advised that there were now other complainants; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And you described on I think it was Friday of last week that the Bishop s reaction, the translation in English was that he was flummoxed; in other words, he wasn t sure what to do. Is that fair? PÈRE : Il était complètement désemparé, estomaqué par la situation. MR. WARDLE: All right. And, of course, you know I think it s clear that, at that time, the Diocese didn t have any policy written of any kind that the Bishop or any of you could follow; correct? PÈRE : C est exact.

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 MR. WARDLE: Now, I m interested in the fact that, at this point, January and February of, no one made contact with either the police or the CAS. And just thinking first of the CAS, is that something that crossed your mind, Father Vaillancourt, that perhaps this -- these allegations should be reported to the CAS? PÈRE : Je n ai jamais pensé. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And is that because the individuals who were making the allegations were over? Or simply because you weren t aware of the obligation to report? PÈRE : Les deux raisons. Les personnes avaient plus que ans et je ne connaissais pas l obligation. MR. WARDLE: All right. And with respect to the police, am I right that the thinking of the time -- and realizing that we re now over 0 years later, am I right that the thinking of the time would have been that this was an internal Church matter? PÈRE : Tout d abord, faut se placer dans le contexte. Les familles voulaient d abord régler ça au niveau de l église; la famille Brisson, par exemple. Et les autres jeunes qui m ont rencontré aussi. MR. WARDLE: All right. So none of the youth who were coming forward were suggesting that they

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 wanted to inform the police; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And, at the time, it wouldn t have been the mindset of the clergy hearing this information that they had any obligation to perhaps inform the police? PÈRE : Moi, je voulais coopérer avec les victimes et faire ce qu ils me demandaient de faire. Et lorsqu il y a eu action policière, j ai coopéré avec eux. MR. WARDLE: What about the fact that Father Deslauriers had been working at a school, a high school? Was there any thought given in those early couple of months to whether there should be some kind of investigation as to what might have taken place at the school? PÈRE : Il faudrait demander à la direction de l école, pas à moi. C est la responsabilité de l école. MR. WARDLE: Well, that I understand but how would the school even know that anything was taking place at this point unless one of you told the school? PÈRE : Bien une fois que ça été mis dans les mains des polices. MR. WARDLE: That I understand but that s a little bit later in the chronology. So let s just stick

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 with January/February of. As I understand it, after Father Deslauriers resigned, was forced to leave his parish duties, he had some contact with the principal of La Citadelle; is that correct? PÈRE : Non. Le directeur -- il avait contact avec l ancien directeur de l école, pas le directeur actuel, à ce que je sache. Mademoiselle Séguin était l ancienne directrice. MR. WARDLE: All right. So she was not actually at the school at that time? PÈRE : Non. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And as far as you know, until the police investigation was underway, the school would not have been aware that anything had taken place unless they were informed by some of these young people? Is that correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And then, as I understand it, on or around February th,, the Bishop met with Father Deslauriers and Father Deslauriers left the diocese the next day; correct? PÈRE : Le soir même. MR. WARDLE: Okay. And as I understand it, you were asked to participate in that meeting but declined and another priest was present with the Bishop; is that

0 Cr-Ex(Wardle) right? 0 PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: Now, do you know, Father Vaillancourt, whether the Bishop offered Father Deslauriers any assurances in terms of the future at the time of this meeting? In other words, did he offer to help him become incardinated in another parish, sorry in another diocese or get a new position? PÈRE : Pas à cette rencontrelà. MR. WARDLE: Okay. Was that something that was done a little later in time? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And were you involved in those discussions with Father Deslauriers? PÈRE : Non. MR. WARDLE: So you heard about this from the Bishop? PÈRE : Lorsqu il a été question d excardination, j ai travaillé, à la demande de l évêque, à préparer le dossier -- l incardination c est-à-dire l excardination -- pour l incardination dans un autre diocèse. MR. WARDLE: What I m really interested in is the incardination process. And we know that Bishop

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 Proulx in Ottawa played a role in connection with that process; correct? PÈRE : Oui. Le Diocèse de Hull. MR. WARDLE: And do you know whether Bishop Larocque gave any assurances to Father Deslauriers at the time he left the Diocese as to his incardination in a new position elsewhere? PÈRE : Je l ignore. MR. WARDLE: And am I right that, within a period of a couple of months after Father Deslauriers leaving, there were reports from parishioners and some of these young people that he had been seen celebrating mass in the Hull area; correct? And people were concerned about that. PÈRE : C est pas moi qui a reçu le rapport. MR. WARDLE: But you heard about it from others I would assume? PÈRE : Par la famille Brisson. MR. WARDLE: The Brisson family were very upset, weren t they, that Father Deslauriers had left the Diocese and was now celebrating mass elsewhere? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And that unhappiness wasn t

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 just limited to the Brissons; there were other parishioners, members of the Diocese, laity, who were very unhappy about what was taking place. Isn t that right? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And that s what led, as I understand it, to the formation of the ad hoc committee. There was some pressure from the laity that further steps had to be considered. Is that fair? PÈRE : Je sais pas si c est cette raison qui a motive Monseigneur Larocque a établir le comité ad hoc. MR. WARDLE: But it may have been one of the reasons? PÈRE : C est possible. MR. WARDLE: All right. I m just going to ask you to look very briefly at the report of the committee. Sorry, I don t have the exhibit number --. If we could just put Exhibit before the witness. I ll just wait, Mr. Commissioner, for it to come up on the screen. THE COMMISSIONER: Sure. Thank you. What page by the way? MR. WARDLE: Right at the beginning there s a letter, I believe it s the second page.

Cr-Ex(Wardle) THE COMMISSIONER: Yeah. Okay. MR. WARDLE: So if we could go back one page. THE COMMISSIONER: The rd MR. WARDLE: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. of April one? 0 MR. WARDLE: Just looking at the second page of Exhibit, this appears to be the -- I d call it the terms of reference of the committee. Do you see that, Father Vaillancourt? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And it suggests that this committee was being set up by the Bishop, and am I right that it was to report to the Bishop? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: And just looking very quickly at the recommendations, which are set out two or three pages after the page we re looking at now. Yes. Next page. As I understand it, you testified before this committee; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And you were also a member of the committee. Is that correct? You were not a member? PÈRE : Non.

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 MR. WARDLE: Okay. But as I understand the recommendations of the committee -- and appreciating, sir, that my French is very imperfect. But as I understand it, the committee wanted to make sure there were some conditions placed on Father Deslauriers incardination in another parish. Is that correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And you can see those starting at -- it s under Recommendations, item and following. THE COMMISSIONER: Before we go there. Estce qu on pourrait expliquer qu est-ce que «a divinis» veut dire? «Suspendu a divinis»? PÈRE : Sur le champ. THE COMMISSIONER: Sur le champ. Okay. MR. WARDLE: And am I right, again, just reading this, my own imperfect translation, that the committee wanted some assurances that Father Deslauriers would go through a certain course of treatment and counselling before he could be re-incardinated as a parish priest? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And I don t want to go through all the correspondence between Bishop Larocque and Bishop Proulx. There s a chain of correspondence that goes on for nearly six months. But as I understand it, Bishop Larocque

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 attempted to put some conditions around the incardination of Father Deslauriers; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: In line with these recommendations? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And Bishop Proulx took the position that under Canon Law, there was no ability to put conditions on incardination and that the most Bishop Larocque could do was refer to difficulties which may have arisen in his letter of ex-cardination; correct? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: So in fact -- and I m not going to take you to the correspondence, but the initial letter, which I believe you signed, would have set out certain conditions -- this is one of the exhibits we looked at the other day, Mr. Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: M hm. MR. WARDLE: By the time we get to the end of the correspondence those conditions have been removed at the insistence of Bishop Proulx; correct? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: And am I right as well that at various points along the way Father Deslauriers refused to accept treatment?

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: If I can just sum up then, sir, there was eventually a police investigation, and you testified last week that you cooperated in that investigation; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: But that investigation, we know from testimony that s been given here, was only started after the Brissons became so dissatisfied with the Diocese response that they decided to go to the media and to the Cornwall Police Service. Are you aware of that? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: So looking back at the time and just thinking about these events that are now years old, one of the obvious difficulties for the Diocese was the fact that there was no written policy. This was fresh ground as far as you and the others involved in this were concerned; correct? PÈRE : Oui, c est ça. MR. WARDLE: And as we ve come to appreciate here, this was not a situation that was easily dealt with by Canon Law; correct? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. WARDLE: And there weren t any guidelines or policies in place in the Diocese at that time

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 that would have encouraged people to come forward with these kinds of allegations. Nothing like that existed. Is that fair? PÈRE : Il n y avait rien. MR. WARDLE: And am I right as well that looking back, one of the concerns you must have had was that Father Deslauriers really left the Diocese without any controls or restrictions being placed on how he could behave as a member of the clergy in future; correct? PÈRE : Monseigneur Larocque lui avait demandé de faire certaines choses mais il les a pas fait. MR. WARDLE: And as you ve outlined, there was really nothing further that could be done under Canon Law. The rules dealing with ex-cardination or incardination to deal with that issue, there simply was a gap. Is that fair? PÈRE : C est ça. (SHORT PAUSE/COURTE PAUSE) LE COMMISSAIRE: Est-ce qu il y a une raison pourquoi -- et puis peut-être que vous l avez dit la dernière fois -- pourquoi que vous vouliez pas aller à la réunion avec l évêque et le Père Deslauriers? PÈRE : Parce que c était -- le Père Deslauriers était un confrère ---

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 LE COMMISSAIRE: Oui. PÈRE : --- et je me sentais très mal à l aise de toute la situation. LE COMMISSAIRE: Oui. PÈRE : Alors, le Père Ménard, qui était un oblat de Marie Immaculée --- LE COMMISSAIRE: Oui. PÈRE : --- alors, personne neutre, s est porté volontaire pour faire cette rencontre. LE COMMISSAIRE: O.k. Merci. MR. WARDLE: And then just closing off, sir -- I won t have many more questions for you -- my colleagues took you through last week the various minutes of the Senate of the Clergy over a period of two or three years, at which the issue of establishing some guidelines came up on a regular basis; correct? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And I took it from that that after the events involving Father Deslauriers, the priests of the Diocese were concerned about the need for some form of written guideline; is that fair? PÈRE : Oui. MR. WARDLE: And eventually you ended up with -- now, let me make sure I ve got this correct -- two documents, both part of Exhibit. The Exhibit ---

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 LE COMMISSAIRE: L autre livre. PÈRE : Pardon. LE COMMISSAIRE: C est ça, oui. Sorry, Exhibit? What --- MR. WARDLE: And there are two tabs. The first one is Tab. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. Right. Tab, yes. (SHORT PAUSE/COURTE PAUSE) MR. WARDLE: First of all, just looking at Tab, this, as I understand it, was created sometime after. It s signed by Bishop LaRocque, but you weren t involved in its preparation; correct? PÈRE : Non. MR. WARDLE: And we don t know whether this document was ever an official policy of the Diocese, or do we? PÈRE : Non, ça n a jamais été adopté par le conseil presbytéral. MR. WARDLE: And in the second document, as I understand it, is at Exhibit, Tab. This was a document that you prepared based on a precedent you had obtained from the Diocese of Quebec; correct? PÈRE : L archidiocèse de Québec.

0 Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 MR. WARDLE: Archdiocese of Quebec. I believe you told my friend last week that the Canadian Catholic Conference of Bishops document, From Pain to Hope, came out around the same time that you completed this document, but you did not review From Pain to Hope when you created this? PÈRE : Je ne l ai jamais lu. MR. WARDLE: And although this document was never signed by Bishop LaRocque, this was in effect at the time Mr. Silmser came forward in early ; correct? PÈRE : Je peux pas affirmer qu il était en vigueur. On l avait, mais il n avait pas été accepté ou adopté par le conseil presbytéral. MR. WARDLE: The document hadn t been formally adopted, but in fact you made use of this document in dealing with Mr. Silmser s complaint; correct? PÈRE : Il était disponible. MR. WARDLE: And can you help me with this, Father Vaillancourt; having been involved initially in the crisis involving Father Deslauriers, did you feel you were in a better position as a Diocese in when another allegation of this kind came forward and you now had this written policy? Did that assist, in your mind? PÈRE : C est possible. Maintenant, à partir de l affaire Deslauriers, l évêque

Cr-Ex(Wardle) 0 avait nommé Monseigneur McDougal pour recevoir des points -- des plaintes sur le côté anglophone et le Père Poirier pour des plaintes francophones. MR. WARDLE: And I understood that, sir, your role in connection with Mr. Silmser s complaint was simply to be as a witness at that preliminary meeting which you told us about last week; correct? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. WARDLE: Thank you then. Those are all my questions. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Horn, good afternoon. MR. HORN: Yes. --- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY/CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MR. HORN: MR. HORN: My name is Frank Horn from the Coalition for Action, and I don t have too many questions, but I d like some clarification in regards to when Father Deslauriers went to Hull, were you aware of what the policy was in Hull regarding the -- you know, the allegations that were against him? How would they treat him there? Were you told? PÈRE : Je n ai aucune idée. MR. HORN: So you were never given any background as to what would be acceptable in the other diocese and what policies they had in effect at that -- at

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 the diocese that he was being sent to? PÈRE : S il y en a eues, ça viendra pas à moi mais plutôt à Monseigneur Proulx, l évêque du lieu. MR. HORN: No, what I m interested in is, is there compatible rules and regulations regarding these matters in the other diocese comparable to the ones in the Diocese that you were in? PÈRE : Quel genre de règles? MR. HORN: I m talking about the ones that had been worked out by your Diocese to deal with the situations. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: There weren t any rules in the Diocese. The witness has conceded that at the time. So there couldn t be any compatible rules because none had been worked out. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, not quite. Not quite. I think we can change the question around a little bit and say, You folks here in this Diocese had looked at some rules -- were looking at some rules and you had received an example from -- un diocèse à Québec --- PÈRE : Oui, à Québec, oui. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay. So it may well be that there was something in Quebec and something in Hull, because as we know, all dioceses are separate and distinct

Cr-Ex(Horn) entities. 0 MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: You know, I m simply reacting to the premise of the questioning --- THE COMMISSIONER: No, I understand. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: --- which is if you have something compatible. There was nothing in Cornwall - - excuse me -- there was nothing in Cornwall -- just wait until I finish; I ll give it back to you. Thank you. There was nothing in Cornwall, and so if he wants to compare, then he should just ask if the witness is knowledgeable about Hull because --- THE COMMISSIONER: Right. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: --- he s conceded there was nothing here. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, he conceded that there was nothing here, but there was something in the works. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: Not in. In he reacted to my friend, Mr. Wardle s question; there was absolutely nothing in Cornwall in terms of policies in to react to complaints received. I m just concerned about the premise of this question. THE COMMISSIONER: Okay, yeah. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: If he wants to ask the man if he s aware of what s in Hull and he knew what was in

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 Hull, go -- you know by all means. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. MR. HORN: Yes. When Father Deslauriers was going to be going to another parish -- or another diocese, did you have any idea what were the governing regulations or rules that would be applied to him when he went there? PÈRE : Non. MR. HORN: The -- do you think that that would be important to know? PÈRE : De toute façon, il était plus dans notre diocèse. Il n était plus sur la juridiction de Monseigneur Larocque; c est maintenant la juridiction de Monseigneur Proulx. MR. HORN: Okay. When he was sent to the other diocese, what information was sent along with him when he went there? Was there a file that was transferred --- MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: I object to the question. There s an assumption in the question that he was sent to the other diocese. There s no evidence of that. Perhaps he should ask the witness what the process were. I think that -- excuse me, I think that the problem the witness is having is that he wasn t the decision-maker and the decision-maker will best be able to

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 answer these questions. Perhaps he should ask him if he was involved in the decision-making that led to the man going to Hull and thus he would have some reason to be impacted by all these considerations. The Bishop who will testify is the person who would have known or not known about these things but -- - THE COMMISSIONER: Right. But he can talk - - he can ask him about his knowledge. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: Sure. MR. HORN: Yes, maybe that would be a better question. What knowledge did you have regarding the process in which he was -- went to Hull and what were the regulations that were going to be governing him there? Were you aware of any of that at all? And were you involved in the process? THE COMMISSIONER: That s a lot of questions. MR. HORN: Okay. PÈRE T: Monseigneur Larocque m a demandé de préparer la lettre d excardination avec les conditions. Et Monseigneur Proulx a refusé les conditions selon le code du Droit canonique, alors nous avons rédigé

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 une lettre d excardination. Et à la demande de Monseigneur Larocque, je l ai fait. Et c est tout. J ai co-signé la lettre comme Chancelier. MR. HORN: Okay. The letter of excardination, does that mean that it s only excardination for your Diocese or he could go somewhere else and he could be incardinated there on their own terms? PÈRE : La lettre d excardination devient -- prend effet lorsqu il -- le prêtre est excar -- incardiné dans un autre diocèse. Alors c est, un suit l autre. Et il peut pas dire «Bien, je vais aller dans le diocèse de mon choix.» MR. HORN: Okay. When the priest who s going to another diocese, when he goes there, what information does your Diocese send to the other diocese? Do you send his file on all of the -- his background or just -- do you go deeper than that? PÈRE : C est la prérogative de l évêque et c est pas moi. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Horn? MR. HORN: Yes? THE COMMISSIONER: My understanding is that Bishop Proulx was well aware of the criminal conviction. And if he didn t appear he had -- he had someone make some representations to the Court that he was willing to have le

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 Père Deslauriers go to his Diocese. So --- MR. HORN: Okay. Let s step back a bit. When somebody comes into your Diocese from another diocese, do you -- did you get with him some sort of a background on that individual that s coming into your Diocese? Were you given the file of his -- what he s done in the other diocese? PÈRE : Ça vient à l évêque. Ça revient à l évêque. MR. HORN: And you don t have access to that information? PÈRE : Non. MR. HORN: And what about the parishioners, do they have any say as to who comes into their diocese? Parish or well the diocese. PÈRE : Non. MR. HORN: Are they given any information on the background of the priest coming into the diocese? PÈRE : Seule information qui est -- ils peuvent recevoir viennent de l évêque qui reçoit le prêtre d un autre diocèse. MR. HORN: And he could then transfer it to the parishioners and put it some -- maybe into a bulletin of some sort?

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 And do they have a say as to whether that priest can come into their diocese? PÈRE : Les paroissiens n ont pas un mot à dire. MR. HORN: The -- so the entire decision is made by the Bishop? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. HORN: Now is the Bishop the one that makes the decision or does he do it on the recommendations made by the Senate or the other groups within these parish -- diocese? PÈRE : Il peut le faire mais il n est pas obligé. MR. HORN: Okay. So he s the ultimate decision-maker within the diocese? PÈRE : C est ça. MR. HORN: So any decision that was made between the two bishops was -- could have been made just between the two of them, Proulx and Larocque, did he have to consult with anybody? PÈRE : C est exact. MR. HORN: He didn t have to consult with anybody? Or they did -- neither one of them had to consult with anybody? PÈRE : C est exact.

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 MR. HORN: So what happens when there s a problem with bishops? Is there a higher authority than them? PÈRE : À ce moment-là, ils doivent aller à Rome, à la congrégation des évêques. LE COMMISSAIRE: Ça c est si, disons qu un prêtre -- qu un évêque ne veut pas incardiner quelqu un? PÈRE : Non. LE COMMISSAIRE: Est-ce que -- si Monseigneur Proulx aurait dit «Non, je veux pas l avoir.» Est-ce que ça aurait été la fin? PÈRE : À ce moment-là, le Père Deslauriers serait resté incardiné à notre diocèse. LE COMMISSAIRE: C est ça. O.k. MR. HORN: And then you would have had to go through process of defrocking him within your Diocese? Can you take away his ability to be a priest? Can the Bishop do that? PÈRE : C est un procédé très long et très compliqué qui me dépasse et qui se fait -- la décision est prise par Rome, pas par notre évêque ou le diocèse. MR. HORN: They are the ones that make the decision as to who is -- can be a priest and who cannot be a priest?

0 Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 PÈRE : Si un prêtre est jugé inapte à continuer à œuvrer dans une paroisse, dans un diocèse parce qu il est coupable d un crime, alors il y a la procédure à suivre et c est Rome qui prend la décision. LE COMMISSAIRE: Mais, entre temps, l évêque pourrait le suspendre? PÈRE : Oh, oui. Oh oui, c est ça. Mais je parle de laïcisation. LE COMMISSAIRE: O.k. MR. HORN: My friend was asking you earlier about the fact that you've dealt with one situation with Mr. Deslauriers and then the next situation came up with the Silmser allegations against Father Charles MacDonald. At that point, because of your previous experience, did you think that going to the police or to the Children s Aid Society would have been something that you could have done almost immediately rather than have the problem come on you the way it did? PÈRE : Si la situation se présente aujourd hui, bien sûr. MR. HORN: Okay. At that time, you have what looked like allegations of criminal conduct and you are not a lawyer. Where would you get your counsel regarding whether something was done that was criminal or not criminal?

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 PÈRE : Moi j ai été seulement demandé d être témoin lorsque Monsieur Silmser est venu au Diocèse et ensuite, c était la responsabilité de Monseigneur McDougald. MR. HORN: Okay. From knowing what happened in the situation, would they go and get their counsel from lawyers in order to tell them whether what was happening was criminal or not? PÈRE : Je le sais pas ce que Monseigneur McDougald a fait. MR. HORN: You don t know what he did but do you think that that's the process that was in place at the time, go and ask a lawyer if what has been done is legal or not? Do you know if that was -- that was the avenue that was being used? PÈRE : Pourriez-vous répéter la question? MR. HORN: Okay. The situation occurs. Allegations are made against the priest. You want to know whether what has been done was criminal or not. You're not a lawyer. The Bishop is not a lawyer. None of you are lawyers. Would you go outside and ask a lawyer to come in and ask him for legal advice regarding whether was done was criminal or not?

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 PÈRE : Monseigneur McDougald a dû transmettre l information à l évêque et l avocat du Diocèse était présent à l entrevue avec Monsieur Silmser. Alors, ils ont dû se consulter mais je n étais pas présent. Monseigneur Larocque a dû consulter notre évêque -- excusez, notre avocat mais je n étais pas présent. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: Mr. Commissioner, the witness is referring to McDougald as a bishop and it may be because of the Monseigneur --- LE COMMISSAIRE: Monseigneur. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: But he is not a bishop. It's just a term of respect for years of service. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: And so they may want to correct. They keep calling him Bishop McDougald. THE COMMISSIONER: Right. Ça fait que --- MR. HORN: Yes, he's a --- THE COMMISSIONER: No, just a second. Just a second. Est-ce que les interprètes ont compris? Parfait. Merci. O.k. MR. HORN: Okay. In 00 now, if you had the same situation occur, you would consult with lawyers and ask them now but you may not have done it back then.

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 Is that the situation? MR. SHERRIFF-SCOTT: I'm not sure how many questions are in that question, but first of all, I'm not sure what the witness knows about the current policy. I'm not sure about the jurisdiction about today and I'm not sure whether he's being asked as he is the Diocese or he is who he is. You know, the decision-maker is going to testify and he can tell you what he would have done back then. I don t know what this man can add to this. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Horn? MR. HORN: Okay. THE COMMISSIONER: I know where we're going. I mean if you want to go there, you d have to lay the groundwork, find out what he knows, what he doesn t know. I mean his present duties I don t think include him being the point man on -- point person to receive complaints, that kind of thing, and we don t know how much -- how closely he works with the present bishop. MR. HORN: What were the years when you were in seminary? Was that in the early seventies? PÈRE : Oui. MR. HORN: Yes. Were you in the seminaries at the same time or about the same time as Mr. Hickerson who was a priest at one time?

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 PÈRE : Je le connais pas. THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me. MR. HORN: Did you --- THE COMMISSIONER: First of all, let's -- do you know Mr. Hickerson? MR. HORN: Do you know Mr. Hickerson? THE COMMISSIONER: The answer is no. PÈRE : Non. MR. HORN: You don t know him. LE COMMISSAIRE: Avez-vous jamais rencontré à un séminaire monsieur Jacques Leduc, comme séminariste? PÈRE : Comme séminariste? LE COMMISSAIRE: Oui. PÈRE : Non. LE COMMISSAIRE: Ken Séguin? PÈRE : Non. MR. HORN: How about Nelson Barque? PÈRE : Nelson Barque était au séminaire en même temps que moi pour je crois peut-être deux ans, mais moi je demeurais au séminaire et lui restait dans une maison de la Communauté des Saints-Apôtres à Ottawa. LE COMMISSAIRE: L avez-vous connu Monsieur Barque? PÈRE : Oui.

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 LE COMMISSAIRE: Bon. MR. HORN: You ve known Mr. Barque --- PÈRE : Yes. MR. HORN: --- while you were in seminary? Would you consider him as a friend or just an acquaintance or someone you just met once or twice? PÈRE : C était une connaissance. MR. HORN: Okay. LE COMMISSAIRE: Dans ces temps que vous avez connu monsieur Nelson Barque, est-ce qu il y avait eu des soupçons, des rumeurs en ce qui concerne lui et des relations avec des adolescents ou des gens de même? PÈRE : Pas au séminaire. LE COMMISSAIRE: Je vous pose la question. Est-ce qu il y avait eu des rumeurs de même au séminaire? PÈRE : Pas au séminaire. LE COMMISSAIRE: Parfait. Merci. MR. HORN: What is the policy today in regards to informing the parishioners about somebody that's being transferred into another parish or into your parish - - not your parish but into your diocese? PÈRE : Les paroissiens ne reçoivent pas d information. Ça se passe toujours entre les deux évêques.

Cr-Ex(Horn) 0 MR. HORN: Is there a rationale for why that happens so the parishioners don t know who they're getting? PÈRE : Les paroissiens ne jouent pas de rôle dans le choix ou l acceptation de candidats dans un diocèse. Ils peuvent jouer un certain rôle lorsqu un membre du diocèse qui est séminariste dans notre diocèse fait la demande pour l ordination, mais pas lorsqu il s agit d excardination et incardination dans un autre diocèse. MR. HORN: That s all the questions I have. THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. We'll take the afternoon break. On va prendre la pause maintenant. Merci. THE REGISTRAR: Order; all rise. À l ordre; veuillez vous lever. This hearing will resume at :0. --- Upon recessing at : p.m. / L audience est suspendue à h --- Upon resuming at : p.m. / L audience est reprise à h THE REGISTRAR: Order; all rise. À l ordre; veuillez vous lever. This hearing is now resumed. Please be seated. Veuillez vous asseoir. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Lee, good afternoon.

Cr-Ex(Lee) 0 MR. LEE: Good afternoon, sir. DENIS : Resumed/Sous le même serment --- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY/CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MR. LEE: MR. LEE: Father Vaillancourt, my name is Dallas Lee, I represent the Victims Group and I have a few areas I d like to ask you questions about. Obviously I need to address you in English so I ll wait for the translation. Okay? Are you ready to go? PÈRE : Oui. MR. LEE: You told us during your examination in-chief that you attended a presentation given by Father Loftus in relating to clergy sexual abuse. Do you recall that? PÈRE : Je me souviens d avoir participé. C était une journée. MR. LEE: And, Mr. Commissioner, if we can look at Exhibit, Tab, please? THE COMMISSIONER: Sure can. MR. LEE: Do you have that, sir? PÈRE : Oui. MR. LEE: And I just wanted to get you to confirm that this was not a training session dealing with how a diocese or a priest or a bishop should receive allegations of sexual abuse. Is that correct?