L e site / a publie cet interview en juin et juillet 2003

Transcription

1 ,QWHUYLHZZLWK'HUHN$OODQRQ$QGUH0DOUDX[DQG $HVWKHWLFV,17(59,(:'(5(.$//$1%\5LFN9LVVHU-XQH L e site / a publie cet interview en juin et juillet 2003 I first became interested in the writing of Derek Allan when I discovered his paper, µ$qgup 0DOUDX[DQGWKH&KDOOHQJHWR$HVWKHWLFV while doing an exploratory expedition on the web. I found the paper keenly provocative and well worth a closer reading. As an artist, much of what I am interested in questions what is forgotten or marginalized both in our culture and in the art world itself. Often the latest trends and issues can be enriched and oriented by reanimating marginalized works or persons or texts from the past. In that light, I must thank Derek Allan for revitalizing m y interest in Malraux and, particularly, his book, 7KH9RLFHVRI6LOHQFH. This rather stately book, when published in 1951, was hailed by Edm und Wilson as perhaps one of the really great books of our tim e. Nonetheless, like m any other such works, it is now all but forgotten. I t is ranked som ewhat lower than 142,000 on the Am azon.com sales ranking. Derek Allan is based at the Australian Nat ional University in Canberra, Australia. He has a longstanding interest in André Malraux and has

2 published a num ber of articles about his work. Most of these have concerned Malraux s novels but m ore recently he has begun to explore Malraux s theory of art, as it is presented in works such as 7KH9RLFHVRI 6LOHQFH and 7KH0HWDPRUSKRVLVRIWKH*RGV. He is continuing to write about Malraux s theory of art and recently presented a paper entitled André Malraux and the Function of Art to an aesthetics conference at Sydney University. I recently conducted an interview with Derek. Portions of this interview will be published over the next few days. 5LFN9LVVHU You have a strong and continuing interest in Malraux. Can you say something about how you becam e interested in him? I s there som e personal resonance you feel, som e way in which he addresses questions that are your questions as m uch as they are his? 'HUHN$OODQ, YHEHHQLQWHUHVWHGLQWKHRULHVRIDUWJHQHUDOO\IRUD ORQJWLPH0DOUDX[LVVHOGRPPHQWLRQHGLQERRNVDQGDUWLFOHVRQ DHVWKHWLFVWKRVHLQ(QJOLVKDWOHDVWVR,GLGQ WILQGRXWDERXW KLPWKDWZD\%XW,KDYHDORQJVWDQGLQJLQWHUHVWLQ)UHQFK OLWHUDWXUHDQGLWZDVYLDWKDWURXWHWKDW,ILUVWHQFRXQWHUHG 0DOUDX[±KLVQRYHOVWREHJLQZLWKDQGWKHQKLVERRNVRQDUW,ZDUPHGWRKLPLPPHGLDWHO\0\ILUVWUHDFWLRQVZHUH+HUHLV VRPHRQHZKRLVQRWRQO\ZLOOLQJWRDVNIXQGDPHQWDOTXHVWLRQV DERXWDUWDQGLWVSXUSRVHEXWZKRFDQDOVRUHODWHZKDWKHVD\VWR VSHFLILFZRUNVRIDUW,WZDVDELWOLNHILQGLQJDKLVWRU\RIDUWDQGD SKLORVRSK\RIDUWVRPHKRZUROOHGLQWRRQH±EXWZLWKRXWWKH WHGLRXVDQGH[WUDQHRXVGHWDLORQHWRRRIWHQILQGVLQKLVWRULHVRI DUWDQGWKHXQZLOOLQJQHVVWRFRPHGRZQRXWRIWKHVWUDWRVSKHUHRI SXUHDEVWUDFWLRQWKDWRQHVRRIWHQHQFRXQWHUVLQWKHSKLORVRSK\RI DUWDQGDHVWKHWLFV

3 ,DOVRIRXQGWKDW0DOUDX[KHOSHGPHWRVHHWKHZRUNVKHGLVFXVVHG ZLWKQHZH\HV+HLQFOXGHVUHSURGXFWLRQVRIPDQ\RIWKHPLQKLV ERRNVEXWLQDQ\FDVHKHWHQGVWRGLVFXVVZRUNVWKDWDUHTXLWH ZHOONQRZQDQGDFFHVVLEOH0DOUDX[ZULWHVDERXWDUWH[WUHPHO\ ZHOODQGZLWKDNLQGRIFRQWDJLRXVHQWKXVLDVP+HRQFH GHVFULEHGKLPVHOIDVµ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±DQGPXFK PRUH$QGDOODUHSODFHGRQWKHVDPHIRRWLQJ±DVDUW7KHUHLVQR TXHVWLRQRIDQ\KLHUDUFK\RIVW\OHV±QRVXJJHVWLRQIRUH[DPSOH WKDWDUWKDVVRPHKRZµSURJUHVVHG RYHUWKHPLOOHQQLDRUWKDWVR FDOOHGµUHDOLVP RUµQDWXUDOLVP ZDVVRPHKRZDWHFKQLFDOµDGYDQFH 7KLVDOOVWUXFNDYHU\UHVRQDQWFKRUGZLWKPH7RP\PLQGLW VHHPHGVRPXFKLQWXQHZLWKKRZZHDFWXDOO\UHVSRQGWRDUWQRZ DQGKRZZHWKLQNDERXWLW7KDW VWKHFDVHIRUPHDQ\ZD\ 7KHVHZHUHDOOILUVWLPSUHVVLRQV7KH\VWLOODSSO\EXWVLQFHWKHQ, KDYHWULHGWRGHHSHQP\XQGHUVWDQGLQJRI0DOUDX[DQGDQDO\VH H[DFWO\ZKDWKHLVVD\LQJ7KHPRUH,UHDGKLPWKHPRUH,ILQGLQ KLP7KHUHLVDYLHZDEURDGLQVRPHTXDUWHUVWKDW0DOUDX[LVQRWD µv\vwhpdwlf WKLQNHUDQGWKDWKLVERRNVRQDUWDUHUHDOO\OLWWOHPRUH WKDQO\ULFDORXWSRXULQJV2QHFRPPHQWDWRUIRUH[DPSOHZULWHV WKDWKLVDFFRXQWRIDUWLVµO\ULFDODQGLPDJLQDWLYHUDWKHUWKDQ UDWLRQDO,WKLQNWKDWYLHZLVFRPSOHWHO\PLVWDNHQ0DOUDX[, ZRXOGDUJXHLVDYHU\FDUHIXOWKLQNHU0RUHLPSRUWDQWO\SHUKDSV KHLVDKLJKO\RULJLQDOWKLQNHU,ZRXOGHYHQGHVFULEHKLPDWWKH

4 ULVNRIVRXQGLQJDOLWWOHH[FHVVLYHDVDGDULQJWKLQNHU±µGDULQJ LQ WKHVHQVHWKDWKHLVZLOOLQJWRH[SORUHWKHIXOOLPSOLFDWLRQVRIKLV LGHDVHYHQLIWKH\OHDGKLPWRFKDOOHQJHDVVXPSWLRQVDERXWDUW WKDWZHPLJKWWHQGWRUHJDUGDVPRUHRUOHVVEH\RQGTXHVWLRQ 59: I t is interesting that one of the first things that hooked you on Malraux was his practice of continually relating what he says to specific works of art. I n your essay, André Malraux and the Challenge to Aesthetics, you seem to give this quality of specificity even m ore strength. You say he actually begins to conceptualize art from specific objects rather than from big ideas like beauty or selfexpression. You also say Malraux invites us to think about art in a new and quite revolutionary way. I s his orientation of specificity a critical part of this invitation to a new and revolutionary way of thinking about art? And, if so, can you say som ething about why you find it revolutionary? '$2QHRIWKHUHDVRQV0DOUDX[IRFXVHVVRVWURQJO\RQVSHFLILFZRUNVRIDUWLVWKDWKH ZDQWVWRGUDZRXUDWWHQWLRQWRWKHHQRUPRXVFKDQJHWKDWKDVWDNHQSODFHRYHUWKHODVW FHQWXU\LQZKDWZH±WKH:HVW±LQFOXGHXQGHUWKHUXEULFDUW:HWDNHLWIRUJUDQWHG QRZWKDWDUWLQFOXGHVREMHFWVVXFKDVFHUWDLQ$IULFDQPDVNV,QGLDQERGKLVDWWYDVRU 0HVRDPHULFDQILJXULQHV%XWWKLVZDVFHUWDLQO\QRWWDNHQIRUJUDQWHGLQ0DOUDX[ UHPLQGVXV 2QHPLJKWUHSO\µ:HOOWKHUHZDVDFKDQJHLQWDVWH6RZKDW" %XWWKDWZRXOGMXVW WULYLDOLVHWKHLVVXH:KDWKDSSHQHGZDVQRWFRPSDUDEOHWRDVKLIWLQµWDVWH IURPIRU H[DPSOH%DURTXHWR5RPDQWLFDVVXPLQJWKDWWKHQRWLRQRIWDVWHFRXOGH[SODLQHYHQ WKDW)RUWKHILUVWWLPHLQKXPDQKLVWRU\0DOUDX[SRLQWVRXWRQHFXOWXUHEHJDQWR DGPLUHWKHZRUNVRIDOORWKHUFXOWXUHV0DOUDX[FDOOVLWDQµDHVWKHWLFUHYROXWLRQ DQG DUJXHV±ZLWKJRRGUHDVRQLQP\YLHZ±WKDWLWVLJQLILHGDIXQGDPHQWDOVKLIWLQWKHYHU\ QRWLRQRIDUWDQGLQKRZZHUHVSRQGWRDUW2IFRXUVHWKHFKDQJHWRRNSODFHOLWWOHE\ OLWWOHRYHUVHYHUDOGHFDGHVIURPWKHODWH1LQHWHHQWKFHQWXU\WRWKHPLG7ZHQWLHWKDQG IRUPDQ\SHRSOHLWWHQGHGWRVOLSE\XQQRWLFHG,WKLQNPXFKRIZKDWLVZULWWHQLQ DHVWKHWLFVWRGD\KDVVWLOOQRWQRWLFHGLW%XWIURPRXUYDQWDJHSRLQWLQKLVWRU\QRZWKH

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6 59 Could it be that part of the reason Malraux s writing in art has been m ostly disregarded in m ajor disciplinary forum s is that his revolutionary orientation is very dem anding, som ewhat like asking seasoned chess players to play chess with different pieces or different values for the pieces, thus requiring a different set of skills or a different or deeper sensibility? '$,WKLQNWKHUHLVVRPHWKLQJLQZKDW\RXVD\±HVSHFLDOO\WKHELW DERXWSOD\LQJZLWKGLIIHUHQWSLHFHV,VDLGEHIRUHWKDW0DOUDX[LVDGDULQJWKLQNHU2QHFRQVHTXHQFHLV WKDWLQUHDGLQJKLPRQHQHHGVWREHSUHSDUHGWRORRNDWWKLQJVLQ QHZZD\VDQGVHWDVLGHRQH VSUHFRQFHSWLRQVLIQHFHVVDU\, GRQ WPHDQRQHVKRXOGDEDQGRQRQH VSRZHUVRIFULWLFDOWKRXJKW 2QWKHFRQWUDU\LIDQ\WKLQJ0DOUDX[UHTXLUHVKLVUHDGHUVWRWKLQN PRUHFULWLFDOO\DQGTXHVWLRQPRUHUDGLFDOO\WKDQWKH\KDYHGRQH EHIRUH

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8 59 You say that som e of the ideas in the discipline of aesthetics have becom e som ewhat calcified through tim e. Perhaps, due to the lyrical force and un-footnoted authority of Malraux s challenges to these calcifications, scholars have chosen to look the other way. Unlike the work of scholarship SHUVH, which m ust build an argum ent by extensive reference to other scholars, Malraux, speaks with a kind of prim al authority, an authority that arrives at its destination on foot rather than on footnote, without requiring others to carry him through difficult areas or verify the path he has chosen. As well, from a scholarly perspective, it is not easy to contain his thought; it seem s to operate on a num ber of levels sim ult aneously. I n essence, it is not restricted by any academ ic discipline. Would you agree that, even beyond his questioning of calcified assum ptions, this m ay also be part of the reason he does not 'get m ore press' in academ ia? '$<HV,WKLQN\RXDUHULJKW$QGWKHUHDUHVRPHLPSRUWDQW SRLQWVWREHPDGHKHUH)LUVWWKHTXHVWLRQRIUHODWLQJ0DOUDX[WR SDUWLFXODUDFDGHPLFGLVFLSOLQHV,ILWKDSSHQHGWREHWKHFDVHDQG IRUUHDVRQVWRROHQJWK\WRJRLQWRKHUH,WKLQNLWLVWKHFDVHWKDW E\LWVYHU\QDWXUH0DOUDX[ VDFFRXQWRIDUWLVQHLWKHUDUWKLVWRU\ QRUDHVWKHWLFVDVWKRVHWHUPVDUHJHQHUDOO\XQGHUVWRRGWRGD\ FRXOGZHGLVTXDOLI\LWRQWKRVHJURXQGV"7KDWLVFRXOGZHLJQRUH LWMXVWEHFDXVHLWGRHVQ WILWQHDWO\LQWRDQ\RIWKHH[LVWLQJ

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11 59 Let m e turn for a m om ent to anot her im portant idea, one with which he begins 7KH9RLFHVRI6LOHQFH, the idea of the Museum without Walls. I n your article ( André Malraux and the Challenge of Aesthetics ) you refer to it as a vast art collection in our m inds. I s he speaking here only of a kind of visual m em ory of works we have seen, or is he trying to establish som ething m ore fundam ental wit h this idea? '$<HV\RXDUHULJKWWRGUDZDWWHQWLRQWRWKLV7KHUHIHUHQFHLQ P\DUWLFOHZDVQHFHVVDULO\UDWKHUDEEUHYLDWHGDQGDELWPRUH VKRXOGEHVDLG )LUVW0DOUDX[ VQRWLRQRIWKHµ0XVHXPZLWKRXW:DOOV UHFRJQLVHV WKDWPXFKRIZKDWZHUHJDUGDVDUWFDQQRWSK\VLFDOO\EHPRYHG LQWRPXVHXPVHYHQLIZHZDQWHGWRWKH6LVWLQH&KDSHOWKH VFXOSWXUHVDW&KDUWUHVWKHIUHVFRVDW$MDQWDHWF%XWLWLVDOVR OLQNHGWRWKHSRLQW,PDGHHDUOLHUDERXWWKHYDVWH[SDQVLRQLQRXU ZRUOGRIDUWWKDWRFFXUUHGLQWKHODWH DQGHDUO\ FHQWXU\ $UWQRZLVQRORQJHUDVLWKDGEHHQIRUVRPHIRXUFHQWXULHV*UHHN DQG5RPDQDUWSOXV:HVWHUQDUWVLQFHWKH5HQDLVVDQFH1RZLWLV WKHDUWRIDOOFXOWXUHVDQGDOOWLPHV6RDV0DOUDX[SRLQWVRXWQR DUWPXVHXPQRPDWWHUKRZZHOOHQGRZHGFRXOGKRSHWRFRQWDLQ

12 DOOWKDWZHQRZUHJDUGDVDUW7KHµPXVpHLPDJLQDLUH LVWKXVRQH PLJKWVD\RXUµLGHDOPXVHXP ±WKHLPDJLQDU\RQHWKDWFRQWDLQV DOOWKHZRUNVZHUHJDUGDVZRUNVRIDUWQRPDWWHUZKHUHWKH\ PLJKWEH 6HFRQGO\RXUµPXVpHLPDJLQDLUH LVPDGHXSRIWKRVHZRUNVWKDW DUHLPSRUWDQWWRXV±ZRUNVWKDWZHUHVSRQGWRDGPLUHDQGORYH 7KDWLPSOLHVWZRWKLQJV)LUVWWKHPHUHIDFWRIVRPHWKLQJEHLQJLQ DQDUWPXVHXPGRHVQRWQHFHVVDULO\PHDQLWEHORQJVLQRXUµPXVpH LPDJLQDLUH ±EHFDXVHZHPD\EHLQGLIIHUHQWWRLW)RRGIRU WKRXJKWIRUWKHLQVWLWXWLRQDOLVWWKHRULVWWKHUH«$QGVHFRQG\RXU µpxvphlpdjlqdluh PD\GLIIHUVRPHZKDWIURPPLQHRUIURP VRPHRQHHOVH V0DOUDX[KRZHYHUEHOLHYHVWKHUHDUHODUJHDUHDV RIDJUHHPHQWDERXWZKDWZHZRXOGDOODGPLWWRRXUµPXVHXPV ZLWKRXWZDOOV,QWKH,QWURGXFWLRQWRKLV,PDJLQDU\0XVHXPRI :RUOG6FXOSWXUHIRUH[DPSOHKHZULWHVWKHIROORZLQJDERXWWKH VHYHQKXQGUHGSKRWRJUDSKVRIVFXOSWXUHKHKDVJDWKHUHG WRJHWKHUµ8QGRXEWHGO\RWKHUSHRSOH VFKRLFHVZRXOGKDYHGLIIHUHG IURPPLQH%XWDQ\RQHWRGD\ZKRNQRZVZKDWDZRUNRIDUWLV ZRXOGDJUHHZLWKWKUHHTXDUWHUVRIWKHPDQGWKHUHPDLQGHUZRXOG QRWEHWKHVDPHIRUHYHU\RQH )LQDOO\,VKRXOGDGGWKDW0DOUDX[GRHVQRWUHJDUGWKHµPXVpH LPDJLQDLUH DVDVWDWLFFRQFHSW±WKDWLVKHLVQRWDUJXLQJWKDWLWV µfrqwhqwv DUHIL[HGRQFHDQGIRUDOO+LVQRWLRQRIDUWLVYHU\ VWURQJO\OLQNHGWRWKHLGHDRIFKDQJH%XWWKDWLVVXHZRXOGWDNH PHDORQJZD\DQG,ZLOOOHDYHPDWWHUVWKHUHIRUQRZ 59 You say in your article that Malraux does not view art as a perm anent category of hum an experience, that it is tim e-bound, subject

13 to change and potential consignm ent t o oblivion. You speak of this as the m ost radical challenge Malraux represents. I am rem inded of the words of Ortega y Gasset quoted in Antonio Huéscar s book, -RVp2UWHJD \*DVVHW V0HWDSK\VLFDO,QQRYDWLRQ : ³7RGDWHSKLORVRSK\KDVDOZD\VVKRZQDXWRSLDQIDFH7KLVLVZK\HYHU\ V\VWHPLQYROYHGDFODLPWRYDOLGLW\IRUDOOWLPHVDQGDOOPHQ$EVWUDFWLQJ IURPDQ\OLYLQJKLVWRULFDODQGSHUVSHFWLYDOGLPHQVLRQSKLORVRSK\ UHQHZHGWLPHDQGDJDLQDQGLQYDLQLWVHIIRUWWREHFRPHGHILQLWLYH,Q RSSRVLWLRQWRWKLVWHQGHQF\,KDYHSURSRVHGDWKHRUHWLFDODFFRXQWLQ ZKLFKWKHUROHRIVWDQGSRLQWV>LVDFNQRZOHGJHG$FFRUGLQJO\,FRQWHQG WKDW@DV\VWHPVKRXOGLQFRUSRUDWHLQWRLWVHOILQDQDUWLFXODWHIDVKLRQWKH OLYLQJSHUVSHFWLYHIURPZKLFKLWRULJLQDWHG«[O Am I correct in thinking this is sim ilar t o Malraux s view? I f in the above quotation we replace the word philosophy with philosophy of art, would we have something quite proxim ate to Malraux s view? '$, PQRWIDPLOLDUHQRXJKZLWK2UWHJD\*DVVHW VZRUNWR DWWHPSWDFRPSDULVRQEXWWKLVTXRWHFHUWDLQO\VXJJHVWVVRPH DIILQLWLHVZLWK0DOUDX[,WUDLVHVWKHWKRUQ\EXWLPSRUWDQW TXHVWLRQRIWKHUHODWLRQVKLSEHWZHHQDUWDQGWLPHZKLFKWRP\ PLQGLVDQDUHDLQZKLFK0DOUDX[PDNHVRQHRIKLVPRVW UHPDUNDEOH±LIUDUHO\DSSUHFLDWHG±FRQWULEXWLRQVWRWKH SKLORVRSK\RIDUW,ZDVUHFHQWO\UHDGLQJ$QWKRQ\6DYLOH VERRN7KH7HVWRI7LPH 2[IRUG&ODUHQGRQZKLFKLVRQHRIWKHIHZERRNVLQ PRGHUQDHVWKHWLFV, PDZDUHRIWKDWWULHVWRWDFNOHWKHTXHVWLRQRI DUWDQGWLPH%XWZKLOHLW VLQWHUHVWLQJ6DYLOH VDQDO\VLVLQP\ YLHZPDLQO\VHUYHVWRKLJKOLJKWWKHGLOHPPDLQZKLFKDHVWKHWLFV QRZILQGVLWVHOIZKHUHWKLVTXHVWLRQLVFRQFHUQHG2QWKHRQH

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µIRUDOOWLPHVDQGDOO PHQ ±LHRQHKDVUHDOO\RSWHGIRUWKHWLPHOHVVLGHDE\GHIDXOW +RZGRHV0DOUDX[GHDOZLWKWKHTXHVWLRQRIDUWDQGWLPH", OO KDYHWROLPLWP\VHOIWRDFRXSOHRISRLQWV(VVHQWLDOO\KHUHMHFWV WKHLGHD±ZKLFKLVIDUPRUHGHHSO\HQWUHQFKHGLQRXUWKLQNLQJ WKDQZHUHDOLVH±WKDWDZRUNRIDUWLVIL[HGLQLWVQDWXUH±WKDWLWLV FUHDWHGµRQFHDQGIRUDOO HYHQWKRXJKVXEVHTXHQWJHQHUDWLRQV PLJKWILQGDUDQJHRIGLIIHUHQWPHDQLQJVLQLW)RU0DOUDX[DZRUN RIDUWLVE\LWVYHU\QDWXUHµERUQWRPHWDPRUSKRVLV DVKHSXWVLW ZKHWKHULWVFUHDWRULVDZDUHRIWKLVRUQRW7KLVSURSRVLWLRQLV KDUGWRDVVLPLODWHDWILUVWLWZDVIRUPHDQ\ZD\EXWRQFHRQH JUDVSV0DOUDX[ VPHDQLQJRQHVHHVZKDWDSRZHUIXOLGHDLWLV+H LVQRWGLVPLVVLQJWKHFRQWH[WLQZKLFKWKHZRUNRIDUWFRPHVLQWR EHLQJ7RWKDWH[WHQWWKHZRUNGRHVKDYHµRQHIRRWLQKLVWRU\ VR WRVSHDN±ZKHWKHULWEHWKHZRUOGRIDQDQFLHQWFLYLOLVDWLRQRURID PRUHUHFHQWSHULRG%XWWKDWIRU0DOUDX[LVRQO\WKHZRUN VSRLQW RIGHSDUWXUHIURPZKLFKLWWKHQVHWVRXWRQLWVMRXUQH\RI PHWDPRUSKRVLV±ZKLFKPD\VRPHWLPHVUHVXOWLQLWEHLQJ FRQVLJQHGWRREOLYLRQIRUORQJSHULRGVDV(J\SWLDQDUWZDVIRUWZR PLOOHQQLDIRUH[DPSOHDQGDWRWKHUWLPHVOHDGWRLWVUHELUWK

15 WKRXJKDOZD\VLQDGLIIHUHQWIRUP±DVWKH3KDUDRK VVDFUHGLPDJH LVQRZUHERUQDVDµZRUNRIDUW IRULQVWDQFH, PFRQVFLRXVWKDWWKLVKLJKO\FRQGHQVHGDFFRXQWULVNVVRXQGLQJ UDWKHUSX]]OLQJLIQRWLQFRKHUHQW7KHUH VDORWPRUHWREHVDLGRQ WKLVLVVXHEXW,KRSHWKLVDWOHDVWJLYHVVRPHLGHDRI0DOUDX[ V SRVLWLRQ$NH\SRLQWWRQRWHJRLQJEDFNWRWKHSRLQWIURPZKLFK, VWDUWHGRXWLVWKDWWKHZRUNRIDUWIRU0DOUDX[LVQHLWKHUHWHUQDO QRUHPEHGGHGLQKLVWRULFDOWLPH+HLVRIIHULQJXVDQHQWLUHO\QHZ FRQFHSWLRQRIWKHUHODWLRQVKLSEHWZHHQDUWDQGWLPH±RQHZKLFKLQ P\YLHZLVZHOOZRUWKRXUFORVHVWXG\ 59 This is very helpful, very rich territory, not only in relation to the objects we call art but, as well, in relat ion to the process of m aking art; taking this further, t here is, it seem s to m e, a journey of m etam orphosis within the process itself. I would like to explore this m ore but it would take us too far from Malraux. Let m e ask you a question on a som ewhat different topic. I know you recently presented a paper entit led André

16 Malraux and the Function of Art to an aesthetics conference at Sydney University. I n your tit le, the word function is singular. This surprises m e a bit. Were you suggesting in your paper that there is only one funct ion of art? '$<RXUSRLQWLVZHOOWDNHQEXWLWUDLVHVDQLVVXHWKDW,PLJKWILQG DOLWWOHGLIILFXOWWRUHVSRQGWRLQDIHZZRUGV2QVRPHRFFDVLRQV 0DOUDX[XVHVWKHWHUPDUWWRGHVLJQDWHZKDWKHDOVRWHUPVWKH IXQGDPHQWDOµFUHDWLYHDFW ±ZKLFKKHUHJDUGVDVKDYLQJDOZD\V EHHQWKHVDPHVLQFHWKHGDZQRIKXPDQKLVWRU\7KLVLVWKHVHQVH LQZKLFK,XVHWKHZRUGDUWLQWKHSDSHU\RXPHQWLRQ7KDWDOORZV PHWRGLVFXVV0DOUDX[ VSURSRVLWLRQWKDWDUWLVDQµDQWLGHVWLQ RU DµUHYROWDJDLQVWPDQ VIDWH DVWKDWSKUDVHKDVEHHQUHQGHUHGLQ (QJOLVK7KLVLQFLGHQWDOO\LVSRVVLEO\WKHNLQGRISURSRVLWLRQWKDW KDVWXUQHGVRPHDHVWKHWLFLDQVDZD\IURP0DOUDX[RQWKHJURXQGV WKDWLWVRXQGVSHUKDSVWRR«YDJXHDQGPHWDSKRULFDO",IVRWKDW DVVHVVPHQWKDVEHHQWRRKDVW\EHFDXVH0DOUDX[PDNHVLWTXLWH FOHDUZKDWKHPHDQVE\WKHZRUGµGHVWLQ 0RUHRYHURQHDOZD\V QHHGVWREHDULQPLQGWKDWWKHVXEMHFWXQGHUGLVFXVVLRQLVDUWDQG LWLVE\QRPHDQVVHOIHYLGHQWWKDWDZULWLQJVW\OHFRQILQHGWRWKH UDWKHUQDUURZOH[LFRQZHDUHDFFXVWRPHGWRLQDHVWKHWLFVZLOOEH PRUHDSSURSULDWHRUHQOLJKWHQLQJLQWKLVFRQWH[WWKDQDVW\OHVXFK DV0DOUDX[ VWKDWDWWLPHVEHFRPHVTXLWHHYRFDWLYHHYHQSRHWLF +RZHYHUWRJHWEDFNWR\RXUTXHVWLRQLWLVFHUWDLQO\WUXHWKDWLQ 0DOUDX[ VYLHZWKHFUHDWLYHDFKLHYHPHQWWKDWZHWRGD\QDPHµDUW KDVQRWDOZD\VEHHQGLUHFWHGWRWKHVDPHHQG,QGHHGKHLQVLVWV YHU\VWURQJO\RQWKLVSRLQW,Q$QFLHQW(J\SWIRUH[DPSOHDVKH SRLQWVRXWWKHFRQFHSWµDUW ZDVQRQH[LVWHQWDQGWKHSXUSRVHRI WKRVHREMHFWVIURP(J\SWLDQFXOWXUHWKDWZHQRZFDOODUWZDV TXLWHVSHFLILFDOO\WRSURPRWHWKHZHOOEHLQJRIWKHGHSDUWHGLQWKH $IWHUOLIH7KDWZDVWKHLUIXQFWLRQWKHLUYHU\UDLVRQG rwuh2qh FDQILQGPDQ\VLPLODUH[DPSOHVLQRWKHUFXOWXUHV

17 0DOUDX[ZDQWVDWKHRU\RIDUWWKDWIXOO\DFNQRZOHGJHVWKLV±D WKHRU\WKDWGRHVQRWWU\WRIXGJHWKHLVVXHE\FODLPLQJWKDW LUUHVSHFWLYHRIZKDWWKH\PD\KDYHVDLGRUGRQHWKH(J\SWLDQV µuhdoo\ VDZWKHLU3KDUDRK VLPDJHLQKLVPRUWXDU\FKDSHODVZKDW ZHWHUPµDUW RUDVVRPHWU\WRDUJXHDVDQLQVWDQFHRIµWKH EHDXWLIXO $QLPSRUWDQWHOHPHQWLQWKHWKHRU\0DOUDX[GHYHORSVLV WKHLGHDRIµPHWDPRUSKRVLV WKDW,KDYHEULHIO\GLVFXVVHG,VKRXOGDGGWKDW0DOUDX[ VZLOOLQJQHVVWRFRQIURQWWKLVLVVXH VTXDUHO\LVRQHRIWKHUHDVRQVZK\,WKLQNKHPHULWVRXUFORVH DWWHQWLRQ,WLVWRP\PLQGRQHRIWKHNH\TXHVWLRQVIDFLQJ DHVWKHWLFVWRGD\DQGRQHWRZKLFKLWKDVVRIDUIDLOHGWRJLYHD JRRGUHVSRQVHRUHYHQWRUDLVHLQFOHDUXQDPELJXRXVWHUPV 0DOUDX[LVVHHNLQJ±DQGWRP\PLQGVXFFHVVIXOO\ILQGV±DWKHRU\ RIDUWWKDWGHDOVZLWKWKLVDPRQJPDQ\RWKHUWKLQJV+HH[SODLQV KRZLWFRPHVDERXWDQGHVSHFLDOO\ZKDWLWVLJQLILHVWKDWZHWRGD\ KDYHDUWPXVHXPVRUµPXVHXPVZLWKRXWZDOOV WKDWKRXVHERWK 3LFDVVRVDQG3UH&ROXPELDQVFXOSWXUHV9DQ*RJKVDQG$IULFDQ PDVNV±DOORIZKLFKZHUHJDUGDVDUWDQGLQPDQ\LQVWDQFHVDV JUHDWDUW,IWKHUHZHUHQRRWKHUUHDVRQ±DQG,WKLQNWKHUHDUH PDQ\±,ZRXOGFRQVLGHUWKLVVXIILFLHQWJURXQGVWRUHFRPPHQGD FDUHIXOUHDGLQJRI0DOUDX[ 59: With that, I think we will have to bring this interview to a close. Thank you very m uch for taking the tim e to do this. I appreciate it very m uch. One last question: Are you planning any future work on Malraux and aesthetics? '$<HVGHILQLWHO\,QWKHLPPHGLDWHIXWXUH,ZDQWWRZULWH VRPHWKLQJRQ0DOUDX[ VXQGHUVWDQGLQJRIWKHUHODWLRQVKLS EHWZHHQDUWDQGWLPH±WKHLVVXHZHZHUHGLVFXVVLQJDVKRUWZKLOH DJR6SHDNLQJPRUHEURDGO\,WKLQNWKHSKLORVRSK\RIDUWLVDQ LPSRUWDQWILHOGRIVWXG\±PRUHLPSRUWDQWWKDQLWVFXUUHQWVWDWXV LQWKHDFDGHPLFDUHQDPLJKWVRPHWLPHVOHDGRQHWRFRQFOXGH±

18 DQG,ZDQWWRWU\WRFRQWULEXWHWRWKLQNLQJDQGGLVFXVVLRQVLQWKDW ILHOG0DOUDX[LVDYHU\ULFKUHVRXUFH±LI,FDQSXWLWWKDWZD\± DQG,WKLQNKHKDVDORWWRRIIHUVXFKGLVFXVVLRQV6R,ZRXOGOLNH WRIRVWHUDZLGHULQWHUHVWLQZKDWKHKDVWRVD\ 59: Thanks again! I wish you the very best! '$7KDQN\RXIRUWKHRSSRUWXQLW\,I,KDYHVSDUNHGDQLQWHUHVW LQ0DOUDX[DPRQJDQ\RI\RXUUHDGHUV,ZLOOFRQVLGHUP\WLPHWR KDYHEHHQYHU\ZHOOVSHQW