CASE NO. CRIM SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA PLAINTIFF, ) ) DEFENDANT. )

Transcription

1 COpy 2 CSE NO. CRIM 2 SUPREME COURT OF THE STTE OF CLIFORNI THE PEOPLE OF THE STTE OF CLIFORNI. ) ) PLINTIFF ) ) -vs- ) KEVIN COOPER. ) ) ) ) DEFENDNT. ) ) SUPERIOR COURT NO. CR-J MOTIONS 0 PPEL FROM THE SUPERIOR COUT OF SN DIEGO COUNTY HONORBLE RICHRD C. GRNER JUDGE PRESIDING 2 PPERNCES: FOR PLINTIFF-RESPONDENT: I FOR DEFENDNT-PPELLNT: 2 REPORTED BY: VOLUME REPORTERS' TRNSCIPT OF ib -fb PGES UTHROUGH 2 HON. JOH! ON PPEL D. VN DE K.'P TTORNEY GENERL DEPRTMENT OF JUSTICE 0 WEST STREET SUITE 00 SN DIEGO C IN PROPRI PERSON LEONRD D. GUNN C.S.R. NO. 0 NI> JUDITH L. MORRIS C.S.R. NO. 00 OFFICIL REPORTERS r I : I I j f I' J

2 .. SERIOR COURT OF THE STTE OF CLIFORNI 2 0 THE PEOPLE OF THE STTE OF CLIFORNI vs. KEVIN COOPER FOR THE COUNTY OF SN BERNRDINO Plaitiff Defedat ) ) ) ) ) ) NO. OCR- ) C.l.-.. ) ) VOLUME ) Pgs. 2 thr icl. ) )! L 2 REPORTERS' DILY TRkSCRIPT BEFORE HONORBLE RICHRD C. GRNER JUDGE DEPRTMENT DEPRT!>lENT 0 - SN BERNRDIKO CLIFORNI Moday Je PPER:;'CES : 2 For the Plaitiff: For the Defedat: DENNIS KOTTMEIER District ttorey DENNIS KOTTMEIER District ttorey By: JOliN P. KOCHIS Depty District DVID McKENN Pblic Defeder By: DVID NEGUS Depty Pblic Defeder fj WI I Reported by: LEONRD D. GUNN Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 0 ad JUDITH L. MORRIS Official Reporter C.S.R. No. 0 0 /.

3 i 2 WITNESS DVID C. STOCKWELL T 0 Direct Examiatio Resmed by Mr. Negs. Direct Examiatio Resmed by t-r. Negs Cross-Examiatio by Mr. Kochis Redirect Examiatio by Mr. Negs PGE I N D E X T EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICTION IN EVIDENCE 2 H- H-2 H- H-- H-2l H- H-2 H- H-2 Photograph Photograph Diagram Plastic overlay Copy of Crime Lab reports Diagram - Stockwell Crime Lab pik sheet Photograph Photograph U ;:J - 2. a 2 2

4 2 \ - SN BERNRDINO CLIFORNI MONDY JUNE 2 :0 O'CLOCK.M. DEPRTMENT NO. 0 HON. RICHRD C. GRNER JUDGE PPERNCES: The Defedat with his Cosel DVID NEGUS Depty Pblic Defeder of Sa Berardio Coty; DENNIS KOTTMEIER District ttorey of Sa Berardio Coty ad JOHN P. KOCHIS Depty 0 District ttorey of Sa Berardio Coty represetig the People of 2 the State of Califoria. (Leoard D. G C.S.R. Official Reporter C-0. Jdith L. Morris C.S.R. Official Reporter C-00.) (David C. Stockwell havig bee o the witess stad at the time the proceedigs were adjcred o Thrsday Je resmed the stad ad testified frther as follows: ) 2 THE COURT: Good morig. Mr. Stockwell yo are still der oath. Hopeflly. 2 we ca coclde evetally with this witess. MR. NEGUS: This week probably. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. U j U -j 2 III

5 -2 2 BY MR. NEGUS: 2 ) '\ DIRiEXMINTON DIR;(EXMINTON REsmmD Vi ) \ 2 The ight of Je the well whe yo were lmiolig the residece at 2 Eglish Road -- d directig yor attetio to Exhibit H- with a plastic overlay H-- did yo prepare the plastic overlay to that diagram at the prelimiary herig? Yes I did. Does the little red dots o the plastic overlay idicate h-_.!. Iot ;... 0 the locatio where yo saw lmiol reactio o the ight of Je the th? 2 ( Now did yo attempt to sketch ay of the patters of those reactios? No. Why ot? The patters were rather odescript. It s hard to - make a good sketch of what they were. Well with respect to the for little patters i the 2 2 hallway from the orth -- excse me -- from the sotheast bedroom to the ortheast the for dots that are goig from the sotheast bathroom i the corridor to the ortheast bedroom did those have ay patter to them? 2 They had a discerable patter as sch. It was a 2 shag carpetig. - :I CI o

6 2 So they had a patter? - 2 They had a otlie. Let's call it that. Yo have two red marks i the actal ortheast bedroom itself i frot of a closet. Did those have ay otlie to them? I I ) t There was oe that I ca recall approximately what it looked like. gai it was a patter which was somewhat odiscerable. I cold't associate it with mch of aythig ' lojas there ay patter to the reactio o t.he walls of the bathroom the shower? 2 There was a patter i that there were spatterig patter sch as o the walls of the shower. Did yo attempt to i ay way record those? No. 'hy ot? drawig wold ot be all that accrate. photograph is difficlt becase it's o a vertical srface. Oce the wet lmiol reaget hits the wall the spots begi to r. 2 Did yo ot record it becase yo wated to be able to describe it i a certai way i yor testimoy? 2 I did ot have that i mid whe we were doig the actal lmiolig process. 2 \e yo first testified at the prelimiary hearig -- 2 Yo testified abot that patter twice; is that correct :J - I a

7 2 I i the past? - 2 I recall I did at the prelimiary hearig. I dot recall if we toched o that sbject at the motio i Otario or ot. Do yo recall describig it differ tly o t differet occasios? No. Did yo wat that patter to be evidece that somebody had washed blood o themselves i the shower? 0 I dot believe I wated aythig. I was otig what I saw as a reactio to the lmial. 2 \-lha t did yo see? I the shower? There were qite a few spottig patters very small spots that whe the lmiol reaget was sprayed o them they glowed characteristic of what blood glos like i the reactio with lmial becase the spots were o a vertical srface ad becase the lmiol was wet the spots bega to r der the iflece of the lmiol. 2 How big were the specks before they started to r? I dot have a defiite size. I didt rr.easre them. 2 They were fairly small. Less tha a ich? 2 Mch less tha a ich. 2 MR. NEGUS: If I cold read yor Hoor from U J -J - U

8 2 Volme 2 to? - 2 THE COURT: Yes yo may MR. NEGUS: O the shower there were little dots o oe of the walls jst little specks; is that correct? Or very sort of -- or did I misderstad yo? Most of what I saw was smearig-type patters. There was ot so mch the blood specks of flyig blood or somethig of that atre. The east wall of the shower that had smearig stff o it? It had reactio i smear form yes.- (BY MR. NEGUS) Over what part of the wall did ye see lmiol reactio? There were several walls i the shower. DO them oe at a time. There were variatios. The wall with the spot for the shower did ot have as mch reactios as I recall as did the other two walls. d there is also a glass door the etrace to the shower that also had some activity. The two I recall havig the most reactio were the two walls that did ot have the spot. Were the reactios localized as far as the whole walls of the shower covered with reactio or was it local?. :J - :J L '

9 0 It was't over the etire portio of the wall. The walls - 2 exteded of corse to the ceilig ad over a give height the areas that I saw the lmiescece did ot exted above that. What was the give height? ywhere betwee sholder height ad head height o p. t the prelimiary hearig. did yo describe it whe asked by Mr. Kochis. as fro the sholder height of a six foot tall ma? 0 I dot recall. t the prelimiary hearig. were yo aware that 2 Mr. Cooper was six feet tall? Be sat before me. I do't believe I ever heard the exact reasre..llet of him. Yo had take hair samples from him at the jail; is that correct? t that poit i tie did yea have a chace to observe his height? 2 Bad yo see the wated posters!or Mr. Cooper? I passig yes. 2 Did yo see o the ated posters he was described as six foot tall? 2 I do't recall readig what s height was. 2 o t the prelimiary hearig did yo also say that the I-' U J L J L 2

10 / blood patter that yo saw o the walls was all above the kee of a six foot tall perso? I remember metioig somethig abot kee height. I do't remember if I said all or most of the reactio was above the kee. MR. NEGUS: If I cold read yor Hoor from the same Volme 2 page lies throgh 0? THE COURT: l-r. NEGUS: Now trig yor attetio first specifically to the shower area where i the shower did yo get the positive reactio from the lmiol reaget? The greatest majority of the reactio was alog the three walls opposite the doorway which eters ito the shower. The measremets were approximately from kee-high of a ormal height idividal say six foot idividal. to approximately sholder height.- (BY l-ffi. NEGUS) t the prelimiary hearig did yo ad I have some qestios ad aswers back ad forth abot whether that particlar patter of havig the blood betwee kee ad sholder wold be cosistet with blood beig washed off the idividal i the shower? We may have had that coversatio at that hearig. I doet recall. o fter the prelimiary hearig did yo discss with.. r ' I lj J

11 2 aybody whether or ot a patter where the blood was - 2 betwee the sholder ad the kees wold be cosistet with blood beig washed off a idividal drig a shower? Yes I have had that discssio with several people. d drig that discssio were yo told that if blood were beig washed off a idividal drig a shower there wold be sigs all the way dow the shower of the L blood rather tha jst betwee sholder ad kee? 0 l-tr. KOCHIS: THE COURT: Objectio. That calls for hearsay. Maybe I missed the qestio. I thoght 2 he was askig abot what he testified to at the prelimiary hearig. I-tR. NEGUS: No. \lhat I asked was the qestio was that at the prelimiary hearig he said betwee sholder ad kee. What I was askig the -- the we fod ot that he has discssed that sice the prelimiary hearig his testioy abot the patters i the shower. \ihat I'm leadig p to is I believe he chaged his testimoy at the motio to sppress ad I also believe that 2 he was told that that was ot cosistet. THE COURT: O the basis of credibility I will 2 overrle the objectio. (No omissios.) 2 2 J L J L LJ

12 2-. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Were yo told that a patter of jst 2 havig blood betwee the kee ad sholder o the wall wold ot be cosistet with washig off of blood o a idividal i a shower?. I've had discssios with several people icldig some of my colleages as to the cosistecy of blood beig fod o the walls ad say ot o the floor of the shower. I've had that discssio yes.. What abot betwee -- the wall of the shower betwee the 0 kee ad the sholder?. That may have etered the discssio. I do't kow. 2. Were yo told that if blood was washed off a idividal oto the wall of the shower it wold go all the way dow to the floor?. That was oe of the hypotheses of the discssio...s a reslt of that discssio did yo chage yor testimoy at the motio to sppress to say that jst the.: majority of blood was above the kee? I do't believe I chaged my testimoy becase of that 2. discssio o. Why did yo chage yor testimoy? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio that assmes a fact that's r l. l 2 ot i evidece. MR. GUS: If I cold read Yor Hoor from Page 2 Lies throgh 2. 2 estio: Over what area of the shower did they -

13 appear to be flowig dow? swer: I wold say there were o stais above my sholder height which wold be approximately five foot six to eight iches ad all those thigs that I observed were below that poit. estio: Were they all above the kee too? swer: The majority yes. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Why did yo state at the Prelimiary Hearig -- excse me at the motio to sppress that it was a majority of the blood that was above the kee? k I really ca't say -- MR. KOCHIS: Yor Hoor I'm goig to object becase it's ot icosistet with what he said at the prelim. The statemet Mr. Negs read from Page agai said the greatest majority of the reactio was o three walls. MR. NEGUS: The it wet o to say that it measred betwee kee ad sholder ad the majority had to do with the three walls ot the measremet. THE COURT: Properly asked r'll permit him to go ito it. OVerrled. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Why at the motio to sppress did yo say k the majority of blood was above the kee? I really ca't say there was a chage. t the motio to sppress did yo describe a patter o the wall that yo saw as if blood were rig dow the wall drig the shower? : - : -- o -'

14 -.';. I do't recall. 2 MR. NEGUS: If I cold read Page 2 Lie 2.. estio: What abot the patter did yo -- made yo believe it was cosistet with blood? swer: First of all lmiol is sed at times whe the blood wold ot ormally be see by the aided hma eye. That is i cases where the blood wold be very dilte. i I throgh Lie That was the prpose for sig lmiol. d the liol 0 gave typical reactios for dilte blood stais. d the ortho tolidie was sed to back p those stdies. 2 If the liol were reactig to somethig other tha blood for istace i active metal to which lmiol reacts it wold be more cosistet to be a more iform atre reactio. Yo wold see a very broad patter or. with blood yo wold expect to see smaller patters leadig dow as if it were washed with water. These were the types of stais or patters that we were seeig. patters that were ot iform ad appeared to be flowig dow. 0. (BY ZR. NEGUS:) Why did I t yo describe the flowig 2 dow patters at the prelimiary Hearig?. probably jst did't thik of it Was it becase yo chaged yor testimoy at the motio to sppress to fit facts abot the patters of lmiol reactios i showers that yo had leared at the 2 prelimiary Hearig?.:J - :J c: I

15 2 No sir. I did ot chage it de to that fact. Were yo able o Je the th as yo watched the lmiol beig sprayed o the shower walls to iterpret the patters that yo saw? To a mior extet. 0. What do yo mea to a mior extet? To the extet that it was givig a typical reactio to blood that it was i a shower that it cold have bee cosistet with blood havig bee washed off i f I I 0 the shower. MR. NEGUS: If I cold read Yor Hoor from 2! Volme 2 Page throgh. estio: So this is the first time yo tried to read patters off a shower? swer: I persoally. yes. estio: t the time did yo take ay otes abot the patters? swer: The otes that we took basically reported whether or whether or ot we saw reactios ad did ot describe ay of the patters we saw there. estio: y ot? swer: I did't see ay beeficial se to it for the patters were ot able to be iterpreted by myself ad Mr. Ogio at least other tha the fact that there was sometaig there reactig with the lmiol. 0. acr MR. NEGUS:) t the Prelimiary Hearig yo testified I J L J L C o

16 o direct examiatio by Mr. Kochis did yo ot that the patters appeared to be the patter of blood washig off a perso oto the shower walls: is that tre? I believe I wold have said cosistet with. What additioal iformatio did yo have at the Prelimiar Hearig abot lmiol patters o showers that yo did ot have whe yo ad Mr. Ogio were observig the patter patteri persoally? I do't derstad the qestio. Did yo have ay additioal iformatio abot the patters that lmiol makes whe it reacts with blood 2 that is washed off a perso oto shower walls at the Prelimiary Hearig that yo did ot have whe yo ad. Mr. Ogio were at the hose o Je the th? I ca't thik of ay additioal iformatio we wold have regardig the patters i lmiol at the prelimiary Hearig that we did't have or we had ot kow of at the time the lmiolig was carried ot. t the Prelimiary Hearig did yo recall describig yor descriptio of the patters as water washig blood dow the walls of the shower as beig edcated gess? I believe I sed that termiology yes. I yor mid do yo make a distictio betwee iterpretig patters ad makig a edcated gess abot patters? There ca be a differece yes. What's the differece? :I L :I L

17 . iterpretatio is somethig that yo ca more or less 2 say somethig defiite abot what yo're seeig. edcated gess is somethig that yo have backgrod kowledge abot the sbject bt less tha what yo wold have to make a iterpretatio becase more possibilities I are preset that limit ay sort of iterpretatio. 0- lihe yo testified at the prelimiary Hearig that yo S ad Mr. Ogio were ot able to iterpret the patters that yo saw o the shower wall were yo attemptig to draw 0 that distictio?. t the time I made that statemet I do't believe I was 2 attemtpig to make a distictio o. 0- t the time that yo testified at the Prelimiary Hearig it was yor belief was it ot that if a perso that was bloody had washed blood off himself i a shower yo wold see a higher cocetratio of lmiol reactio towards the top of the patter tha toward the bottom; is that correct? I believe that cold be cosistet yes. Bas that opiio chaged? First of all the qestio was was that yor opiio at the time of the prelimiary Bearig? I believe that was oe of my opiios yes. Bas that chaged sice the prelimiary Hearig? No. I-' U :J L :I :J U 2 The patters that yo saw o the walls of the shower

18 were they cosistet with the shower havig bee 2 scrbbed with bleach?. I'm ot sre what yo're sayig. Yo mea the walls of the shower havig bee scrbbed after say blood had bee deposited there or withot blood havig bee deposited there at all?. Withot blood havig bee deposited there at all.. No I do't believe that the patters I saw were... :.ir.._ cosistet with bleach. 0 MR. NEGUS: If I cold read Yor Hoor volme 2 Page Lies 2 throgh ad the skippig some stff 2 2 Lies 0 throgh 2. THE COURT: Yes yo may read it. MR. NEGUS: estio: Based o the patters yo saw.o the orth ad east walls wold yo be able to distigish tho from the patters yo wold expect to fid from bleach from a shower beig scrbbed if yo cold get a light reactio off the bleach? swer: If it were based solely o e lmiol test possibly ot havig added -- 2 estio: Bt let's get back to the patter. The pattr is ot icosistet with bleach right? swer: It's possible that's correct.. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Ca yo describe the patter of lmiol 2 reactio that yo saw i the sik? 2 :I 2. Not i ay grea.t grea detail.

19 0 Best yo ca. - 2 Small spots small wipes -- or ot wipes bt smears i the sik. spots or smears or both? r-taybe a mixtre of both. What is the differece i yor mid betwee beig speckled ad beig spotted? I do't kow if there is a great differece. Speckled probably meas smaller areas tha spots. 0 I yor mid md wold a spot mea a larger speckle? It cold be yes. 2 d both ld be distigised from a smear; is that correct? t the prelimiary hearig yo testified did yo ot. that all yo saw was smears ot speckles? 'r l 2 I do't recall. volme 2 page lie throgh. - Ca yo recall ay patters of the stff yo saw o the sik? Oly to say it was a smear-type f l r 2 atre that it was ot speckled or aythig like that Is that what yo are distigishig betwee is that a sbstace that covers ( 2 a area as opposed to somethig that's dotted?

20 That's oe way to state it yes. Did yo take ay otes tryig to describe i words like smear spotted speckled drippig- the patters that yo saw i the shower or sik? Not that I recall. Why ot? I did't feel that it was all that ecessary. Did yo thik yo.ld a year later? be able to rewember it clearly...; _.\ I was't thikig at at or ot. time whether I wold have to / 2 / Whe yo are collectig evidece ad akig Observatios at a crime scee do yo cosider that yo might have to testify abot it i cort at some later time? I geeral that's i the back of my mid yes. Do yo cosider that sc=eties two to catch a sspect? That's a possibility yes. it might take a year or d do yo cosider Lat oftetimes cases of this particlar type take a year or wo Yes I'm certai that they do. Do yo Lik to get to trial? it's importat the. to try ad be able to preserve yor obse-atio so that yo ca give a cosistet ad accrate reditio of them at a later time? It depeds o the observatio itself. Certai J L :I :I

21 2 obse atios yes. Of corse other observatios are - 2 so sbtle i atre ad so fleetig with time that a descriptio at the time might be jst as misiterpreted at a later time as jst yor ow memory. I this particlar case do yo remember merely yor coclsio that a sspect had washed himself off i the shower ad ot the observatios o which that coclsio was based? First of all I do't thik it was ever a coclsio. i i i L 0 It was a cosistet statemet that what we were seeig was cosistet with what a perso had washed off i 2 the shower. i' I will rephrase my qestio. Do yo thik that yo remember ow merely yor edcated gess that a perso had washed himself i the shower ad ot the observatio o which that edcated gess was origially based? I recall havig see patters. I do't see that I cold say oe way or the other by yor qestio. I mea oe way or the other that either oe of them is etirely correct. Yo certaily remember yor edcated gess that a perso washed himself i the shower correct? d yo do't remember cosistetly he observatios J t: J :J U 2 that yo had of the patters i the shower; is that /'

22 I I - 2 correct? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio. That's argmetative. THE COURT: (BY MR. NEGUS) Sstaied. Do yo have a cosistet ad accrate memory of the patters that yo saw i the shower? Not a accrate reflectio o ot of every sigle patter that was there. Wold it be fair to say the that yo remember yor edcated gess rather tha yor observatios? No ot etirely. How is it differet? I recall i geeral what I saw the cosistecies that I oted i my mid that I discssed with Mr. Ogio at the scee. What cosistecies do yo remember? The areas i which the blood was see the tyical reactio with lmiol. Typical reactio with lmiol is that jst a ble glow? The reactio with lmiol is a ble glow yes. The typical reactio of oe with blood has to do with the overall patterig. For istace certai active metals will create the same ble glow that yo wold expect blood to show except that the active metals ormally follow a give set patter that yo ca distigish with yor eyesight. What is the patter of metal? U 2 J J -

23 /----' - 2 For istace the chrome of a shower chrome ofte gives a positive reactio so all of the chrome facets to the shower glowed. What is the patter? That's jst it. What is the patter of the metal. If it's a facet it looks like a facet glowig. What yo are sayig is that that which distigishes metal from some other reactio is jst the shape of a metal object? 0 No. ll I'm sayig is that it's oe logical iferece 2 that yo ca make. How did yo distigish i yor mid the patter that yo wold expect from blood from the patter that yo wold expect from trace metals o that wall? If there were trace metals say i the tilig itself all of the tiles ld have show that; yet all of the tiles did ot glow with the lmiol so it cold ot have bee somethig i the tilig itself. So the the patter that yo -- the cosistecy that yo had i yor mid with blood verss somethig else is that ot all of the wall glowed; is that correct? That's oe of the thigs I oted i my mid yes. side from the fact that ot all the wall glowed what other cosistecy did yo see? MR. KOCHIS: I'm goig to object as ot beig relevat to the Bitch motio at this poit. He ow appears... L r C

24 to be simply deposig Mr. Stockwell as to his expertise. - 2 THE COURT: Cosel I thik the objectio as made is good ad frther yo are i a 2 area ow where yo are simply goig after more detail cross-examiatio ad discovery as opposed to Hitch. MR. NEGUS: I believe that if Mr. Stockwell is goig to be allowed to testify I thik that this -- I'll back p. My Hitch cotetio is that he did j L. ot preserve a accrate record of the reactio that he saw. 0 He failed to preserve that. Mr. Kochis i rebttal to that always comes back 2 ad says Well do yo remember ow that yo prepared a /---...\ 2 report ad all that sort of thig. I believe that this is relevat to show the materiality of his ot preparig a report to wit: does't have ay real memory of what he saw. Proceed. he THE COURT: The objectio will remai sstaied. (BY MR. NEGUS) How log wold it have take yo to prepare otes of what yo saw i the shower? Jst otes of what I was thikig probably ot very - :. 2 log. How log wold it have take yo to attempt to make a sketch? - :J - 2 I do't thik a sketch was possible or reasoable give 2 the types of srfaces that were beig sprayed with ---

25 - 2 lmiol. Why didt yo take photographs? Photographs have to be take o a time-exposre basis. The lmiol that yo are sprayig o the shower is wet. \ihatever yo are seeig is rig dow the shower. If there was a patter there that was itelligible it wold't last very log. It wold r dow de to gravity. What was the problem with takig photographs of the sik? J ;.; The same geeral problem. \ojhat was the problem wi th takig photographs of the ' 2 patters yo saw o the carpet? The first ight we did't have a camera with s capable of takig exposres. We came back the secod ight ad did attempt to raise the footprits. However they had diffsed ito the carpetig sch that we cold't get r L as good a reactio as we did the previos ight. Which ight was that?. The ight after the first sprayig. I believe we sprayed the first ight Je the th the Je the th. L 2 So yo did't take ay photographs becase the reactios were't good eogh? 2 Those patters i the hallway that's correct. 2 2 O Je the 0th whe yo decided to miol the Rye hose did yo cosider that the same sort of diffsio that yo had see at the 2 residece o the th might - C t: /

26 affect the carpet that yo were takig? - 2 No I do't thia we thoght abot that. That vas a differet-type carpetig ad the stregth of Le reactio was differet. It was ch stroger i the Rye hose. 0 Did yo make ay record of yor attempt to photograph o the ight of the th? I my otes o. ywhere? Other tha the film that wold have bee exposed was processed throgh the Idetificatio Brea. Did aythig happe over the weeked to refres yor L -... _...--: _...--:-. 2 recollectio abot takig photographs? I discssed it back i the laboratory with Mr. Ogio becase we were speakig last Thrsday abot the ight of the th. ad at that time I. cold-t remember photographs havig bee take. \'he I refreshed my ::terory with Mr. Ogio. he remided me abot the secod ight that we lmiolcd ad we did attempt to take photographs. (No omissios.) ' :I L :J.-. :I /..----

27 So basically the yor testimoy here today was refreshed by Mr. Ogio tellig yo that; is that right?. 0. Remidig me of it yes. Did yo i fact or yo did i fact take photographs of the reactio at the 2 residece o the ight of the th) I believe I recall tryig to take a photograph of oe of the impressios that was i the ortheast bedroom. d did yo actally like expose the film? Did yo bhe have it developed? 2 Was it overexposed? f...- I. I do't recall havig see the film myself ad I do't recall offhad aybody tellig me what the problem was with the photographs. Bt they said they were't ay good. I l Did yo se Tri-X film? I do't recall which film we sed. Do yo recall ay of e details of how yo exposed it?. Not offhad o. Was y. Roper preset whe yo were doig that? 'Z'HE COURT: Doig what? 0. (BY }ffi. NEGUS:) Takig pictres.. He may have bee. I really do't recall. Was that area i frot of the closet the oly area yo I l t t 2 atte=pted to photograph? /---'

28 I I believe that was the oly area i the hose we attempted to photograph yes. Takig this red marker cold yo draw a pt a i a circle d the draw a arrow to the red dot that yo attempted to photograph o Exhibit H-2? /--' Do yo have a smaller marker? Try a ble Rollig Writer pe. The evidece that was seized o Je th after yor arrival at :00 o'clock at 2 did yo ad Mr. Ogio do that work together? Were yo doig packagig?. Some of it.. Showig yo Photograph S-2 it appears to be a photograph of a closet with a hk of rope white ylo rope i the back ext to a No.. Did yo participate i seizig that particlar evidece?. I believe so yes. d did yo package it? I do't recall offhad if I did or ot Were yo ad Mr. ogio workig together o that? Did that piece of rope appear to have stais of a sbstace like blood o it? I yor traiig have yo bee taght that it's all right - J L lj.

29 - 0 to pt blood staied articles i plastic bags? 2 - Defiitely ot if the blood is wet. d it is preferred / t) that the article go ito somethig like a paper sack or a maila evelope. O the ight of Je the th yo had paper sacks ad maila evelopes there at the scee: is that correct? Did yo pt that hk of rope ito a plastic bag? I do't recall. \vhat effect ca the plastic bag have o the blood that's pt i it? If the blood is wet it provides a ideal atmosphere for microorgaisms to grow which wold iterfere with serological testig at a later tlme. Ca the same effect be cased by jst hidity I really do't kow. i the air? Do yo recall ay particlar reaso why it wold have bee desirable to pt that rope ito a plastic bag? Not offhad. s yo were workig at the Lease residece did yo reqest -- as yo were workig o the ight of Je the th at the Lease residece packagig the evidece that yo were seizig did yo reqest that the crime lab photograph all the items that yo seized before yo seized them? Excse me. Start agai. :J L LI 2

30 s yo were seizig evidece o the ight of Je the th at 2 did yo reqest that the.0. brea take photographs of all the evidece that yo were seizig before yo seized it? I do't recall if I specifically made that reqest. It's ofte doe. Do yo kow if all the items yo seized were i fact photographed that ight? I do't kow if all the items were photographed o. The mbers that are i the photograph i frot of yo S-2 did yo place those there? I do't recall havig placed those there. Those ers do't correspod to yor laboratory mbers do they? No they do ot. How may days did y work processig the Lease residece? I believe I was there o three days. Did aybody i yor laboratory sggest to yo that yo were takig too mch time processig the Lease residece? I do't recall aybody makig that statemet to me. The items that yo took back to the crime laboratory o the ight early morig hors of Je the th that yo seized from the Rye residece mbers -I throgh - whe yo got them back there were yo resposible for.v 22 selectig ot those which had bee froze from those which did ot? r lj i I LI - - L I --.J

31 2 2 Whe did yo do that work? I believe o Je the th. Whe yo got back to the crime laboratory that ight? I do't recall if it was exactly whe I got back to. I the laboratory or if it was whe I came i the ext morig. Which items did yo pt i the freezer?. Those items that I had specifically collected for 0 serological prposes. So those were the for kow blood samples off the carpet 2 ad the samples from the walls that yo ad Ms. Schechter had collected; is that correct?. I do't believe it was samples from the walls bt as a ballpark figre. There were also some stais from the carpetig i the j>athroom. I'll be more precise. -2 throgh 0 which were carpet samples correct?. d the -l throgh - which were wall fritre L r l r L ad carpet samples from the bathroom? Those are the oes yo froze; is that right? Oh ad also the rope from the driveway. That wold have bee -? -? Let me go throgh my otes. - l

32 ... :-::: il2 Okay. Yes - the ylo rope. -2 the telephoe. (No omissios.) I also froze a sample of blood il 2 2 'r lj. j lj - - L.- I -.J 2 2

33 - Did yo take that sample at the laboratory? 2 I believe so yes. I do't recall offhad. I wold have to check the freezer i or laboratory. I may have froze frozer the sample of carpetig that was wet. That wold have bee laboratory mber what? -2. Why did yo freeze that? For the simple reaso I did't kow exactly hat it was. It may have bee of serological se ad for that reaso 0 was froze. Jly th was the date that yo ct ot the differet 2 sples from the sheets ad the comforter. is that right? How log did it take yo to do that? The etire process took most of the day as I recall. r l Yo made drawigs of the patters of the blood o the sheets? d yo picked ot the samples ad pt them i separate pillboxes; is that right? pillboxes or evelopes. d yo made sketches of as may differet of the major patters yo cold of the sheets ad comforter o both frot ad back; is that right?. l. - I: c:

34 .. _-._ _.. '_.. ' ':. i -2 2 How log did it take yo to freeze.the items that yo did o Je th? O Je the th most of them were already itemized separately fro everythig else so all I had to do was place them i a freezer. It did't take log at all. Maybe mites. The rope that yo seized. yo did have that i a maila evelope: is that right? I believe so yes. 0 Did yo freeze ay of the hair samples that yo took drig the atopsy? 2 No I do't believe so. To yor kowledge is it possible to do serological typig of hairs that may have bee plcked from the head? I have see repors i the foresic jorals of typig of hair sheaths which is the material which is o the blb of the hair. If all that comes ot whe the hair is plcked it's possible to a reasoable legth of time to type that. 2 Yo attempted to take hair off all the victims hads: is that correct? 2 Is that becase drig a strggle a victim will ofte U C 2 grab a bit of the'sspect's hair i their had? 2 That'S possible yes.

35 That's what yo were lookig for whe yo took it? - 2 Why did't yo freeze it? Becase we do ot do the serological examiatio of hair i or laboratory. Do yo ever seize evidece that yo yorself ca't do the aalysis of? We do o occasio. How do yo distigish those occasios from those that 0 yo do't? It's somewhat depedet o the type of evidece that's 2 beig collected. How log wold it have take to have froze the hair? Not very log. How mch space i the freezer wold it have take? Not a great deal. Is it possible to get mch more idividalizig I iformatio from serological typig tha it is from jst hair comparisos aloe? Yo ca add to the characteristics of the hair. I'm ot all that proficiet i examiig hair. I do't kow exactly how mch yo ca tell from hair. Bt I do kow i serological typig there is a limited mber of ezymes. at least that I have see i the literatre. that are obtaied from typig of hair J L LI o o 2 shafts.

36 I I - It is also possible to type for ay ormal blood type 2 blood stais the celllar material that adheres to the bottom of plcked hair; is that correct? I believe that's what.i'm speakig of hair shaft. m ot talkig abot blood or aythig like that. Jst the celllar material that's at the bottom? The hair sheath ear the root blb. Bt that sheath will give yo more precise iformatio or will be able to -- the hair sheath will be able to 0 elimiate a larger mber of sspects tha with jst a idividal's hair compariso; is that correct? I do't kow that for a fact o. THE COURT: Is this a coveiet poit Mr. Negs? MR. NEGUS: THE COURT: We will take the morig recess. (\'lherepo the morig recess was take.) (BY MR. NEGUS) Was there ay reaso why yo did ot remove the hair off Peggy Rye's body before she was trasferred? The oly reaso is that that's a ormal procedre at least for myself. I feel that at the morge there are better lightig coditios for collectig sch trace evidece from the bodies ad also I ca collect the body bags. \'lhe yo collected the hair yo oted that some was from the torso ad packaged separately ad other from J L U C J

37 the leg; is that correct? t the morge? - 2 There was hair from differet parts of her body that I collected separately. Yo thoght it importat eogh to label the geeral area of the body like torso verss leg ad package those separately: is that correct? I that particlar case yes. d those were take after she had bee trasported i I the body bag the body bag had bee removed ad she was 0 moved arod o the grey at the morge; is that correct? 2 I that particlar case was there ay particlar reaso why yo did't remove the hair at the scee so that yo cold have better oted its locatio prior to the hair havig a chace to move? 2 NO. Did yo i processig the residece at o Je the th attempt to clear a path o the carpet for people who oved i ad ot of the rooms o which yo cold be reasoably sre that all the evidece had bee I I-'.: collected o? I do't believe I cleared ay particlar path before goig o to somethig else o. Is that a stadard procedre to try ad clear a path so that yo ca limit the amot of cotamiatio that -. J r

38 trace evidece receives? That's a possible way of goig abot a crime scee. Was there ay reaso why yo did ot se that particlar method i this particlar case? - No. Why do yo feel that a large amot of evidece makes docmetatio of a precise locatio from which the item of evidece is seized less importat tha whe yo have less amots of evidece? I'm ot sre I follow what yo mea by yor qestio. Last week. yo said that the reaso that yo did't docmet the precise locatio from hich differet items were take was becase of the large amot of evidece ivolved i this particlar crime scee. is at a fair statemet? hy do yo thik that a large aot of evidece makes precise docmetatio of exact locatios less importat tha it wold be i a scee with fewer items? It wold ot be less iortat if yo ideed are goig to collect the evidece i that maer. With specific actios beig oted where a particlar drop of blood was beig collected from yes. that wold have to be docmeted ad that wold be importat. Khy wold it be less importat to do that to ote that precise actios ad exact locatios i a crime scee IJ :I L

39 - 0 where there was a large aot of actios tha i oe - 2 where there ere fewer? I'm ot sayig that it's less importat. ll I'm sayig is it's more difficlt ad i the ed might ot yield as mch iformatio as possible de to the atre of the amot of actio havig take place. For istace blood o the all that blood cold have bee mixed before it reached the wall ad we wold ever kow that. I..--!.; Did yo believe that the drops of blood o the wall were mixed? 2 I kew that there as a possibility of that. s far as seqecig the order i hich victims were attacked cold the fact of mixed blood be sigificat? It might be bt I really wold't be able to say with ay degree of certaity. r c s yo were collectig all e blood yo were aware at least of the possibility that the hatchet -2 had bee sed i the attack right? Whe are yo askig? Whe yo were collectig the blood from the Rye hose yo were aware at that poit i time were yo ot there was a possibility at least that the hatchet which I showed yo last eek the Ryes? -2 was sed i the attack o r l

40 So that particlar hatchet there was blood o there - 2 that appeared cosistet with havig bee cast off of a istrmet sch as that hatchet correct? That's possible yes. There was evidece jst lookig at the bodies that there had bee at least 0 differet blows from some cttig istrmet similar to that hatchet correct? I do't kow how may wods. There \.ere meros L i f wods yes. 0 d blood from a particlar wod will ot stay o it o a hatchet sch as that for more tha oe or two 2 swigs; is that correct? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio. That calls for speclatio. THE COURT: Sstaied. (BY MR. NEGUS) Do yo kow if that's the case? I do't kow. Did yo thik that there wold be ay disadvatage as far as -- Wait a mite. Leavig aside time factors did yo thik there wold be ay disadvatage to otig the 2 precise locatio of where yo collected varios items of evidece? 2 Sometimes it's importat as far as relatig it to other physical evidece at the scee or to possible people 2 at the scee. There are varios ad sdry reasos 2 for otig locatios. o U - -- :;

41 2-2 Wold there have bee ay -- I this particlar ase did yo ote ay exact locatios coected to ay of 0 2 the blood that yo seized? No I did ot. \'lold there have bee ay disadvatage other tha time i otig those precise locatios? No ot that I ca thik of. (No omissios.) ' :J. L U 2 /-

42 -. 2 Showig yo Exhibit H- the wall it that's show i that exhibit it wold have take yo approximately five mites wold it ot to have draw a sketch fra which oe cold determie the precise locatio which U took the blood off of?. I do't thik that five mites that wold be possible.. Most of my sketches are ot to scale ad i that vei yo wold ot be able to determie the precise locatio. Did yo have a measrig device available to yo? -. i -:-'-' 0. I had a rler with me.. 2 How log does it take to take two measremets? THE COURT: Cosel that's too obvios to ask. Sstaied. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Did aybody who is a spervisor i r crime lab tell yo that yo did ot have eogh time to do a complete docetatio as to the locatio of the evidece that yo took?. No.. Why the did yo come to that coclsio?. To which coclsio? bot the blood 2. Yo did't have eogh time to make a diagram of the 2. precise locatio from which yo got the evidece? I did't feel that it was that ecessary.. So yo thoght the that the reaso yo did it wast 2 time bt becase there was o sefl iformatio that 2 cold have bee obtaied from takig precise otes of r-' U c: -

43 exactly where yo got the evidece from? 2 I did't feel that it wold be very beeficial as far as blood stais o the walls ad thigs like that. I oted geeral locatios. 0- Well yo did ot take oe sample from each actio which had left evidece o the walls correct? That's correct. Did yo thik there wold be ay beefit to otig which actio it was that yo took the sample from? 0 THE COURT: Cosel we're begiig to get repetitive ow. We've goe over this area. d i a mber of yor 2 qestios ow yo're begiig to go over them ad over them. / MR. NEGUS: I'm really pretty sre I have't asked Lese particlar qestios. That's why I asked them. THE COURT: I'm tellig yo ow they're begiig to get repetitive. Cotie yor examiatio as yo wish. Bt if yo're ot throgh by oo I'm goig to place a limitatio 2 o yo this afteroo. Proceed. MR. NEGUS: Cold I have the last qestio read back. (Record read.) -. J THE WITNESS: I did't feel there was ay direct 2 2 beefit from that o.. (BY MR. NEGUS:) What do yo mea by direct beefit? The type of work that was to be doe was maily 2 serological ad we were ot attemptig to do a - o

44 recostrctio that wold call for that type of work. 2. Who made the decisio that yo were ot attemptig to do recostrctio that wold call for that type of work?. O Je the th I did.. re yo ow testifyig that yo did ot o Je the th attempt to seize evidece so that yo cold do -- so that a crime recostrctio wold be doe which wold list the six ites that we had o the board last Thrsday?. No I'm ot sayig that. I'm ot chagig my testimoy. 0 The oly thig I'm sayig is that the amot of work that 2 was ivolved there reqired or wold have meat doig more recostrctio tha we were itedig to do at that time. The aot of evidece that I did collect with the 'docmetatio that I did wold led itself to some recostrctio that wold cover most of thos poits that yo had listed o the board. 2. Yo have idicated that yo did't take more samples becase yo felt that it wold strai the capacity of yor laboratory to aalyze blood from all the differet actios that were o the walls; is that correct? 2 MR. KOCHIS: aswered. THE COURT: Objectio that's bee asked ad Yes sstaied. 2. (BY MR. NEGUS:) Did aybody tell yo that it wold strai -:-.:-.o._. i ':r:-... '. :t L 2 the capacity of the laboratory to do that?

45 2. No. How did yo come to that coclsio?. Becase I do ork i serology. I kow the amot of.rk that goes ito the amot of procct that comes ot. d it wold strai the workigs of or laboratory to prodce that amot of iformatio. How do yo kow that? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio that's bee asked ad aswered -... '... THE COURT: Not very well. OVerrled. 0 THE WITNESS: By my ow experiece. (BY loir. NEGUS:) What i yor ex;>eriece the is the 2 limit that yor laboratory is ca?able of aalyzig i a ' complex mltiple mrder case?. I do't kow if I cold set a limit that we are capable of doig. I limitig the amot of evidece that yo took how r l 2 2 did yo set that limit? m. KOCHIS: Yor Hoor r'm goig to object. I believe we covered that last Thrsday. He wet throgh the items ad why he took them ad why he did't take more ad why he took the blood samples he took ad hy he did't take more. THE COURT: It may be a slightly differet qestio. l r bt I'm goig to sstai the objectio o 2 grods. The probative effect is jst greatly otweighed by the cotied C 2 time dratio ad jst very very slight relevacy.

46 Mr. Negs let's coclde with this witess. Yo've 2 had more tha eogh time. We're o the third day ow. Yo shold be at least approachig the ed. Hw mch loger to yo expect? M-. NEGUS: I do't kow Yor Hoor. MR. KOCHIS: He feels cofidet that we ca fiish with this witess today hopeflly sometime i e afteroo. d we may get started with aother witess this afteroo Ms. Schechter who is o call. 0 THE COURT: Im talkig abot his iitial exaiatio. -. : c.... : It's ow two mites after by or clock. Coclde yor. 2 iitial examiatio if at all possible by oo. MR. NEGUS: Yor Hoor I'm goig throgh -- there are certai areas I feel I have to cover. I feel I'm doig them as qickly as I ca. I have o way of kowig -- THE COURT: I. Negs I've jst abot had eogh. Mr. Kochis. I do ot wish to itervee if yo fr the Prosectio's poit of view are desiros of lettig this I go o ad ifiitm. O the odler had I thik that we're well withi the Cort's power to cotrol proceedigs ad 2 we're well beyod Le permissible limit ow of examiatio ad that I ca safely preclde frther examiatio. We're Were 2 jst goig o ad o ad o ad that appears to be jst oe of may witesses. d I'm perfectly willig to pt a time 2 limitatio o it d ad ove the proceedigs alog. Bt I 2 reqire some itervetio o yor part too. J c. :J C :I

47 MR. KOCHIS: My relctace to do that at this poit 2 is I feel withi a hor ad a half he's goig o be doe with his direct ad I hesitate to create a isse if we're goig to save a hor to a hor ad a half. So I'm ot iterested at this poit i reqestig a time limit o Mr. Negs. THE COURT: Do yo feel that yo will coclde i a hor to a hor ad a half Mr. Negs?. ' MR. NEGUS: Well I told Mr. Kochis that 'was the 0 estimate that we were doig. Sometimes we hve iterrptios it takes loger. Sometimes the witess's aswers are -- it takes loger for me to get a aswer to a qestio that I wold have aticipated. alog. THE COURT: Let's try ad expedite it please. Move (BY MR. NEGUS:) I aalyzig the scee o Je the th did yo cooperate with Mr. Hall ad Mr. rlr ad the people from.0. i tryig to determie what had happeed?. Did yo have discssios with them?. Drig those discssios was a hypothesis formlated that the adlts were killed first ad the the kids ra ito the room afterwards? MR. KOCHIS: I wold object. That calls for hearsay. I ca't see how it's relevat to the isses of this motio. J L - e '..I

48 2 THE COURT: MR. NEGUS: Mr. Negs. Crime scee recostrctio. He said I believe that sch a hypothesis was formlated at least Sheriff Tidwell aoced it. THE COURT: What's the relevacy to yor Hitch motio? MR. NEGUS: The ext qestio is d.id they do it solely o physical evidece. That's a isse of seqece. Did he ad the did he do ay did he take ay evidece to try to establish it. 0 THE COURT: I'll sstai the objectio. (No omissios.) J c: f o 2..

49 0 Did yo collect ay evidece to try ad sbstatiate the - 2 hypothesis the adlts were killed first the the kids thereafter? I do't believe I collected evidece with that solely i mid. Was that o yor mid while yo collected evidece? That was i my mid yes. Was that hypothesis based solely o physical evidece? : :.'..:..... MR. KOCHIS: Objectio. That assmes a fact ot i 0 evidece that that was the workig hypothesis. THE COURT: Oce yo ope it p I thik he is 2 ettled to iqire ito the basis of it. Overrled. / THE WISS: I do't kow what all of the factors were ivolved i the hypothesis at that time. (BY MR. NEGUS) It came to yo from somebody else? We had discssed it. It came from other people. I kew for istace that there was a srvivig victim. I did't kow at that time what iformatio they had gaied from him. Was there ay physical evidece discssed to either sbstatiate or egate that hypothesis? MR. KOCHIS: I wold object. That calls for hearsay ad it's ot relevat as to what other people may have bee discssig. It calls for speclatio certaily as to what was discssed otside his presece. r - - L. L C.. 2 TEE COURT: Sstaied. ;--

50 MR. NEGUS: The relevace is to his state of mid -2 2 yor Hoor i failig to collect evidece. THE COURT: Sstaied. I'm also cosiderig 2 of the Evidece Code. (BY MR. NEGUS) Did yo eglect to collect ay evidece which wold have either sstaied or egated that hypothesis? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio. That calls for speclatio.. I ''-. t :. THE COURT: Clearly it does. Sstaied. 0 (BY lom. NFGUS) Did yo eglect to collect ay evidece which i yor opiio -- r objectioable. THE COURT: Cosel this is all coclsioary ad Sstaied. (BY MR. NEGUS) Did yo have ay alterate hypothesis abot the seqece of evets that yo were tryig to test: test. Not to my kowledge. Did yo form a opiio as to the amot of strggle which had goe o i the master bedroom? MR. KOCHIS: Objectio. That wold call for speclatio ad it's ot relevat to these proceedigs. THE COURT: sk it agai please. Mr. Negs. (BY loir. NEGUS) Did yo form a opiio as to the amot of strggle which had goe o i the master bedroom? THE COURT: Jst a secod. -' U :I L a f :I. 2 No. Overrled..

51 2 THE WITNESS: I had a opiio yes. - 2 (BY MR. NEGUS) That was there was a large amot of strggle? d did yo form a opiio that the strggle had take place throghot the master bedroom? I do't believe I came to that coclsio o. Did yo have a opiio as to what kid of strggle was ! =--. ivolved?.-: 0 I do't kow what yo mea by what type of strggle w Did yo have a opiio as to What did yo mea by strggle i comig to that opiio?- strggle is a cofrotatio betwee two or more idividals. That's what I'm speakig of. I do't kow what yo wat to ask i the qestio. Did yo come to a opiio as to the atre of the cofrotatio? Oly i that it was a life-or-death strggle betwee apparetly the victims ad assailat or assailats. Did yo come to ay -- THE COURT: Jst a momet Cosel. Really his state of mid is becomig exhastive. I'm jst tred of -- hearig it ad I do't thik yo are profitig ay by goig frther ito it at this stage. I qestio the relevace of cotied examiatio. The time is too mch. We are talkig abot his failre to preserve :I t:. a '-I

52 I evidece oce collected or ay cospiracy to hide evidece ad I do't thik yo are gettig at it by frther qestios as to his state of mid. Next qestio please. (BY MR. NEGUS) Did yo see ay sig that the victims had bee moved from room to room? Did yo say from room to room-? There was a idicatio that possibly someoe had bee i the master bathroom. Jessica was lyig i the hallway. That might be called a differet room. Other tha that o ot that I saw or I recall. Did yo have ay iformatio as to where Jessica was whe she was attacked from the physical evidece? It appeared it was very possible she was attacked i the bedroom ad fell back ot throgh the bedroom door ito the hallway. Did yo do aythig to try ad test that hypothesis by collectig blood samples? Blood samples were take from either side of the bedroom door yes. Did ay of the those blood samples o the walls appear to yo particlarly probative of that particlar isse? There was a smearig-type blood patter that was o the wall the west wall that appeared she may have strck the wall as she was fallig bt that was prely.-'-...- ) -;.; :- J l. - a -